Time to buy a gun ... again

j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
There is no time to rack a slide. If you need to see for yourself watch the Mythbuster's test. Generally 21 feet is considered the minimum separation distance for having any chance of drawing and firing before a bad guys is on you even with a loaded chamber. Even then it doesn't mean that he will die before landing a fatal wound on you. I've had the opportunity to attend shoot/no-shoot scenario training and it's just amazing how fast things can go south even with the weapon already in your hand and ready to fire and you know something is likely to happen.
Just guessing, but Mythbusters Adam is probably not a good example :) But yes, that's too close to draw and rack, and that isn't even concealed which will add roughly 1 full second to that draw.

Perhaps a S&W M&P9c would be a more practical first handgun ;). Compact, super reliable, inexpensive and cheap to practice with.
If it isn't for CCW, I'd probably go with a full size. I had been considering the 9c for carry, but I am now looking at the soon to be available M&P Shield in 9mm. Simply because I like my full size M&P a lot already :) Same trigger, more or less similar function-wise internals as the full size and 9c, but semi-staggered single stack so narrower for carry. Plus it is over $100 less than the 9c.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
I've got the full sized M&P 9 and it's very nice. I'm also considering a shield, but will likely end up with a Springfield XDs in .45, as it's about the same size as the shield.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The existing XDs are double stack though, so a little wider like the M&P 9c, not that I have a problem with that grip :) Hmmm...guessing my Crimson Trace doesn't fit on the 9c, since it has a shorter grip? I like the 1" wide aspect of the Shield, but what you give up for that narrowness is the lack of switchable backstraps. I wasn't crazy about the trigger on the XD compact I looked at, but I have only shot full size (5") ones. Have not seen a XDs in person yet, but I will have to see how those feel with them being single stack.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
The existing XDs are double stack though, so a little wider like the M&P 9c, not that I have a problem with that grip :) Hmmm...guessing my Crimson Trace doesn't fit on the 9c, since it has a shorter grip? I like the 1" wide aspect of the Shield, but what you give up for that narrowness is the lack of switchable backstraps. I wasn't crazy about the trigger on the XD compact I looked at, but I have only shot full size (5") ones. Have not seen a XDs in person yet, but I will have to see how those feel with them being single stack.
I have a CT on my M&P9c and my M&P45. The one for the compact is just a bit smaller. I also have them on two of my 1911s. I considered getting one for my Kahr PM40 but decided not to.
 
Cruise Missile

Cruise Missile

Full Audioholic
Mostly because they found that some smaller Soldiers (females) couldn't handle the .45 during testing which resulted in procurement of the beretta 9mm.

M-Fine,

I've seen different SFG use some kind of accurized 45acp usually based off the 1911. The majority I've encountered still carry the Beretta however. They put much more emphasis on their long rifles.
The grip on the M9 is nearly double the size of a single stack 1911.... seems counter intuitive.

That said, My wife does prefer the M9. She's damn good with it too. :eek:
 
Cruise Missile

Cruise Missile

Full Audioholic
Okay I over stated the grip size difference.

I got our Beretta 92fs/M9 out and compared it to my Kimber 1911 Pro TLE/RL II and the grips are very similar in size. I'd now like to say the 92fs grip is 10% larger than the 1911.

Granted, the mil spec 1911 is a Colt, so the comparison I made may not be accurate.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
With my VZ grips, my single stack 1911 is pretty wide, about as wide as my M&P with the medium palmswell.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Getting back to the "time to rack" and manual safety discussion... here's my two cents. I've been to a tone of classes... tactical, defense, marksman, etc. I used to shoot competetive handguns in college... so my opinion is based on what I know and how it applies to me... so your mileage may vary...

Manual Safeties - I started shooting 1911's. I carry cocked and locked. All my tactical/carry training I put in had you learn to sweep the safety on draw. It's a non-issue for me. Actually when I pull my XD 40, I still sweep for the safety. I am less comfortable carrying my XD fire-ready because it does not have a safety.

There a very good chance that if you ever have to pull your weapon you will be in or within a second or so of physical contact. Regardless of how much you train, it's not like on TV where you reach and have this hollywood draw of your gun. You'll grab at it. Under stress, you'll naturally put your hand on your gun and find your finger looking for the trigger. There are any number of stats that show accidental discharge by police officers drawing their weapons under stress.

You can argue that you won't remember to drop the safety, but that's something you cna learn instinctively more so than not putting your finger on the trigger which is totally instinctive especially under stress.

I see no point in carrying a weapon that isn't carried chambered. I'm back to carrying the 1911, the XD sits on my nightsand. I'd rather a carry a double action before my XD I think.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Getting back to the "time to rack" and manual safety discussion... here's my two cents. I've been to a tone of classes... tactical, defense, marksman, etc. I used to shoot competetive handguns in college... so my opinion is based on what I know and how it applies to me... so your mileage may vary...

Manual Safeties - I started shooting 1911's. I carry cocked and locked. All my tactical/carry training I put in had you learn to sweep the safety on draw. It's a non-issue for me. Actually when I pull my XD 40, I still sweep for the safety. I am less comfortable carrying my XD fire-ready because it does not have a safety.

There a very good chance that if you ever have to pull your weapon you will be in or within a second or so of physical contact. Regardless of how much you train, it's not like on TV where you reach and have this hollywood draw of your gun. You'll grab at it. Under stress, you'll naturally put your hand on your gun and find your finger looking for the trigger. There are any number of stats that show accidental discharge by police officers drawing their weapons under stress.

You can argue that you won't remember to drop the safety, but that's something you cna learn instinctively more so than not putting your finger on the trigger which is totally instinctive especially under stress.

I see no point in carrying a weapon that isn't carried chambered. I'm back to carrying the 1911, the XD sits on my nightsand. I'd rather a carry a double action before my XD I think.
Very good point, and also should note that the thumb safety is an integral part of properly gripping the 1911, so it should already be a natural part of aiming. Even with the safety features, I am not sure I would want my carry gun to NOT have a thumb safety for this reason as well.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Getting back to the "time to rack" and manual safety discussion... here's my two cents. I've been to a tone of classes... tactical, defense, marksman, etc. I used to shoot competetive handguns in college... so my opinion is based on what I know and how it applies to me... so your mileage may vary...

Manual Safeties - I started shooting 1911's. I carry cocked and locked. All my tactical/carry training I put in had you learn to sweep the safety on draw. It's a non-issue for me. Actually when I pull my XD 40, I still sweep for the safety. I am less comfortable carrying my XD fire-ready because it does not have a safety.

There a very good chance that if you ever have to pull your weapon you will be in or within a second or so of physical contact. Regardless of how much you train, it's not like on TV where you reach and have this hollywood draw of your gun. You'll grab at it. Under stress, you'll naturally put your hand on your gun and find your finger looking for the trigger. There are any number of stats that show accidental discharge by police officers drawing their weapons under stress.

You can argue that you won't remember to drop the safety, but that's something you cna learn instinctively more so than not putting your finger on the trigger which is totally instinctive especially under stress.

I see no point in carrying a weapon that isn't carried chambered. I'm back to carrying the 1911, the XD sits on my nightsand. I'd rather a carry a double action before my XD I think.
Hey Chris. Sorry, but I'm a little slow to catch up with this thread. Please let me know if this has been covered....
I thought the XDm's I've handled felt pretty darn nice...all calibres except the .45, which like all other double-stacked pieces felt like I was holding onto a 2x4. (I especially hate the Glock M21 for that reason.)

Anyway, ergonomics aside, isn't drawing and shooting a double action auto pretty much mimic drawing and shooting a revolver...the much recommended piece for beginners!

I too believe the beloved 1911 models carried condition yellow yields best safety and reaction time. But for CC, some of the smaller poly models in .40 sure seem to fill the bill.

Having owned a double/single action piece (S&W M459), I can surely say that those are definitely NOT the way to go.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Hey Chris. Sorry, but I'm a little slow to catch up with this thread. Please let me know if this has been covered....
I thought the XDm's I've handled felt pretty darn nice...all calibres except the .45, which like all other double-stacked pieces felt like I was holding onto a 2x4. (I especially hate the Glock M21 for that reason.)

Anyway, ergonomics aside, isn't drawing and shooting a double action auto pretty much mimic drawing and shooting a revolver...the much recommended piece for beginners!

I too believe the beloved 1911 models carried condition yellow yields best safety and reaction time. But for CC, some of the smaller poly models in .40 sure seem to fill the bill.

Having owned a double/single action piece (S&W M459), I can surely say that those are definitely NOT the way to go.

I love my XD. It's a ported 40 caliber. Great gun, fits like a glove in my hand. I just don't like to carry it because it does not have a manual safety. Because I personally would never carry a gun not chambered, it gives me a bit of pause know there's little to prevent a discharge if grasping for the gun in a desperate situation. To me, the safety features are a bit silly to argue. A palm safety does little if anything in a situation like that. Even under stress drills the range with training guns, it's almost totally instinctive to grab the gun and find your booger finger inside the trigger guard. The instructer used to put shoe polish on the trigger, you'd then holster your weapon for CCW, which for me was an in the waistband right hand draw. He'd then have some come at you and you'd have to pull the training gun out and say "BANG." The closer the range, the more likely you were to not draw your weapon smoothly and when they were very close, and were able to physically get on you, almost in variably, you'd have shoe polish on your finger. The instructer would often call "CEASE! CEASE!" before you could get your gun on target and check. Busted!

I will preface this all again by saying these are my thoughts and experiences and are based on my education and training going back 20 years or so when I was a very active shooter. Perhaps there's new techinques that may change those impression now, but human nature is a hard thing to change.

We've all seen the video of that cop giving a lecture to a group of students when he goes to pull his glock and shoots himself in the leg. For me, I just trained with 1911 and felt comfortable having the safety as a last resort.

For a double action semi-auto, I'd say it's a decent comprimise. Revolvers are harder to carry and draw, though some of newer ones like the LCR and Bodyguard are really fine weapons that have mitigated many of the complaints about carrying a revolver. Also, anyone who says 6 shots isn't enough doesn't know what they're talking about. If you need more than 6 bullets, you're in a really really bad situation and it's doubtful more will make a difference. Now I'm not saying if you have the opportunity to carry more you shouldn't, but don't not carry a weapon because you don't have 13 rounds. Also, I wouldn't listen to all the talk about calibers either. Anyone who says a .32... hell... even a .22 isn't an effective round is misguided as well. I'd the caveat to that is in northern states where you'll find people wearing multiple layers of heavy clothing and leather jackets. Still... I doubt you'd find anyone knocking a 22 to put on a thick heavy coat and let you shoot them point blank with a 22. You pick the gun not the caliber. Now again, if the gun that works for you is a 45, then great. But 9mm, 40, 357, 38, even many new .32's are all capable defense rounds.

That's probably more than you cared about, but I like talking about this stuff. Most importantly, anything that someone tells you is very much going to be skewed to their own needs, capabilities, experiences, etc. Use opinion like guide, but make the ultimate decisions yourself.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I love my XD. It's a ported 40 caliber. Great gun, fits like a glove in my hand. I just don't like to carry it because it does not have a manual safety. Because I personally would never carry a gun not chambered, it gives me a bit of pause know there's little to prevent a discharge if grasping for the gun in a desperate situation. To me, the safety features are a bit silly to argue. A palm safety does little if anything in a situation like that. Even under stress drills the range with training guns, it's almost totally instinctive to grab the gun and find your booger finger inside the trigger guard. The instructer used to put shoe polish on the trigger, you'd then holster your weapon for CCW, which for me was an in the waistband right hand draw. He'd then have some come at you and you'd have to pull the training gun out and say "BANG." The closer the range, the more likely you were to not draw your weapon smoothly and when they were very close, and were able to physically get on you, almost in variably, you'd have shoe polish on your finger. The instructer would often call "CEASE! CEASE!" before you could get your gun on target and check. Busted!

I will preface this all again by saying these are my thoughts and experiences and are based on my education and training going back 20 years or so when I was a very active shooter. Perhaps there's new techinques that may change those impression now, but human nature is a hard thing to change.

We've all seen the video of that cop giving a lecture to a group of students when he goes to pull his glock and shoots himself in the leg. For me, I just trained with 1911 and felt comfortable having the safety as a last resort.

For a double action semi-auto, I'd say it's a decent comprimise. Revolvers are harder to carry and draw, though some of newer ones like the LCR and Bodyguard are really fine weapons that have mitigated many of the complaints about carrying a revolver. Also, anyone who says 6 shots isn't enough doesn't know what they're talking about. If you need more than 6 bullets, you're in a really really bad situation and it's doubtful more will make a difference. Now I'm not saying if you have the opportunity to carry more you shouldn't, but don't not carry a weapon because you don't have 13 rounds. Also, I wouldn't listen to all the talk about calibers either. Anyone who says a .32... hell... even a .22 isn't an effective round is misguided as well. I'd the caveat to that is in northern states where you'll find people wearing multiple layers of heavy clothing and leather jackets. Still... I doubt you'd find anyone knocking a 22 to put on a thick heavy coat and let you shoot them point blank with a 22. You pick the gun not the caliber. Now again, if the gun that works for you is a 45, then great. But 9mm, 40, 357, 38, even many new .32's are all capable defense rounds.

That's probably more than you cared about, but I like talking about this stuff. Most importantly, anything that someone tells you is very much going to be skewed to their own needs, capabilities, experiences, etc. Use opinion like guide, but make the ultimate decisions yourself.
Thanks for great comments, Chris. I agree with all you said...especially about the goofy (useless) safety features on the otherwise-cool XDm.

I'd like to add that one of the things my old friend Jeff Cooper used to say about personal defense. "The piece on your hip is only there to help you fight your way to your rifle." ;) Jeff ("the father of modern handgunning") had great disdain for the double action autos, he sarcasticly called them Wondernines. By the way, he used to have all his 1911 grip safeties pinned.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Manual Safeties - I started shooting 1911's. I carry cocked and locked. All my tactical/carry training I put in had you learn to sweep the safety on draw. It's a non-issue for me. Actually when I pull my XD 40, I still sweep for the safety. I am less comfortable carrying my XD fire-ready because it does not have a safety.

There a very good chance that if you ever have to pull your weapon you will be in or within a second or so of physical contact. Regardless of how much you train, it's not like on TV where you reach and have this hollywood draw of your gun. You'll grab at it. Under stress, you'll naturally put your hand on your gun and find your finger looking for the trigger. There are any number of stats that show accidental discharge by police officers drawing their weapons under stress.

You can argue that you won't remember to drop the safety, but that's something you cna learn instinctively more so than not putting your finger on the trigger which is totally instinctive especially under stress.
I'm with you - I like a 1911 in genuine leather cocked and locked with one in the chamber. Getting where you automatically sweep the safety off as the muzzle comes up is just a matter of enough training and like you I find my thumb doing it even on my no-thumb safety M&P9c and M&P40c. Speaking of which they would be my next choice if I weren't a dyed in the wool 1911 guy.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Just saw these for the first time this morning after getting an e-mail from Cheaper Than Dirt!

The Chiappa Rhino revolver, with a barrel that aligns with the bottom of the cylinder - article here. 4" chrome version shown below.

 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Just saw these for the first time this morning after getting an e-mail from Cheaper Than Dirt!

The Chiappa Rhino revolver, with a barrel that aligns with the bottom of the cylinder - article here. 4" chrome version shown below.

Yeah, it's different. I've seen it in the American Rifleman a while back. Funny thing is, I have yet to see it in the wild. I've even been to a couple of medium (for texas, maybe large for others:D) sized gunshows and have yet to see one for sale.

And I love cheaper than dirt. And their shipping is lightning fast.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Not too impressed with the finish or built quality of the Chiappas from looking at them, but they work and obviously that's how they get that cheaper than dirt price. I have no experience with the longevity of them though, do they last? They do seem to get decent reviews. I just read the review of their 1911-22 and it was pretty positive.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I'm finally going to buy my first pistol. I dunno what to choose :(

Primarily looking at the FN FNS, Walther PPQ, Springfield XD, S&W M&P, and Glock 19 or 26. I'm really thinking about just getting the FNS though.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I'm finally going to buy my first pistol. I dunno what to choose :(

Primarily looking at the FN FNS, Walther PPQ, Springfield XD, S&W M&P, and Glock 19 or 26. I'm really thinking about just getting the FNS though.
I like the feel and finish of the Walther, but haven't shot one yet. I would say XD over the glock. Pretty similar but the XD seems more refined to me. I have .45 XD and it's awesome. No manual saftey (I like it, but see how some might not), and it has never mis-fired or jammed on me.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
I'm finally going to buy my first pistol. I dunno what to choose :(

Primarily looking at the FN FNS, Walther PPQ, Springfield XD, S&W M&P, and Glock 19 or 26. I'm really thinking about just getting the FNS though.
most important thing is to make sure you handle these before you buy.

e.g. the XD has a pretty hard slide to pull, the glock grip hurts my fingers. etc.
 

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