This site.

[zumbo]

This site will not let you correct a mistake they have made.

This site overrates web only products.

This site underrates popular brands.

This site calls brands like Monster snake-oil, and then pushes web-only cables that cost as much, if not, more. There is no difference in sound with any cable.

This site claims to be the place for help, and then, they state not to post a brand(a) product compared to brand(b) product. I guess they think their review is the gospel, and you shouldn't ask anyone else.

This site will not reply to a thread. They wait until someone questions something they dissagree with, and then, there they are. And then, they will never admit they made a mistake. They try to end the thread with a reply that looks as though it was written by a lawyer. And, if that doesn't work, they lock it.

This site threatens to ban anyone who calls them out on any of the above.

I would say to all members new and old, don't let someone push a web only product. Go with your gut. I have been like a little robot pushing AVS and HSU. I am sure they will blow someone away when they get one that is twice the size of what they had, but I doubt they are any better than another brand with similar specs and size.

I can go on-and-on about brands this site backs, and I understand it's a business. But without members, there is no site.

I would like to see this site give a little more respect to it's members, new and old. Many members are very, very sharp. I have seen members I think are very knowledgeable get dissed by the mods. I have seen many new members come in and get dissed right off the bat. Or, they get made-out to be dumbasses.

I have been into audio for tweny+ years. It's hard to keep up with new technology. If you miss a day, you miss alot.

People need to be 100% certain the product they are spending their money on is going to serve it's purpose. Many of these top-shelf products suck. A product may have the ability to use a certain connection, or playback a certain format. But they can suck at it as well. A product may claim the ultimate in hum rejection, and you get the hum anyway. A product may claim to go down to 13Hz, but suck at reproducing a much needed 50-60Hz. A product may claim to be 4ohm, but not dip as low as one said to be 8ohm. It goes on-and-on.

The moral of the story, don't be fooled.

 

[Takeereasy]

I don't know if I agree with everything you said, but I am interested to see how this pans out for you Zumbo. I for one am willing to push HSU products. I wouldn't be if I hadn't heard them. I am wary of web-only products myself as well, but if I have experience with the product (like HSU and Impact Acoustics) I will stand behind them. I always thought you were a good source of info, and enjoyed most of your posts. I know you are more informed in the audiofield than I, and I wouldn't want to argue with you on technical merits.
That said I really do enjoy the reviews conducted on this site, and I find the mods to be pretty easy going and friendly (all but that Tom Andry guy jk). I'm just curious though, is this in relation to the recent SVS bashing and subsequent fallout around it? I don't get it myself, but then I'm not too familiar with their products, but it did seem like Basshead had an agenda, just look at his post history with regards to SVS. I do feel that SVS fans/supporters can be too vocal at times, but the same can be said of any brands followers. Take MB Quart for example , they have at least one big fan I know of on this site, yet most people have never heard of the brand. Same with my PSBs, I'm a pretty rabid supporter of their product, but I do know they're not for everyone.

As to your concern about the large percentage of web-only products on this site, my personal, uneducated, and uninformed guess is that web-only companies are looking for sources to get reviewed and to advertise in order to make a name. A growing audio-dedicated website that gives thorough reviews and offers competitive ad costs might be a good spot to submit products. Plus the recent reviews of Sony, Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Panasonic should be a clear indicator that there is a large portion of the site dedicated to B & M retailers.

Anyways, that's my $.02, I'm not always happy with how things go on the site, but it's still my favourite audio website by a mile. Just so you know I really do think you're a good guy and a good source of info, I just disagree with you (for the most part) about this thread.

 

[stevo137]

Zumbo,
I am a newbie here and threw out a few posts to test the waters and from what I can see, there is a wealth of information and opinions based on experience here.
I consider myself a technical novice in audio with a very good ear and am here to learn and contribute when I feel that it might be beneficial.
I am involved in another forum for another passion of mine and have made some good friends and gained knowledge there over the years and hope to do the same here.
I can tell you one thing for sure IMO, high quality cables and connections have made a noticeable difference in the sound of my system...
stevo

 

[j_garcia]

Internet direct companies rely on sites like this to get the word out. They sell great products for less in most cases, so I don't see a problem with recommending the ones that I do at all.

You said "same price" for a similar product, but that is definitely not the case in most situations. You can't even begin to compare Monster to many of the internet direct brands. You get higher quality for the same price and an identically performing product costs LESS from the internet direct brand. Why pay MORE for the same thing if there's no difference? The idea is to save money AND get a good product and that is what the majority of the internet direct companies offer - VALUE.

I understand where you're coming from, but it is a privately run site and they can do whatever they want with it. That is the caveat for posting in a forum like this - though it is public, it is not owned by the members.

 

[zumbo]

Internet direct companies rely on sites like this to get the word out. They sell great products for less in most cases, so I don't see a problem with recommending the ones that I do at all.

I agree. But, it doesn't mean they are better.

You said "same price" for a similar product, but that is definitely not the case in most situations. You can't even begin to compare Monster to many of the internet direct brands. You get higher quality for the same price and an identically performing product costs LESS from the internet direct brand. Why pay MORE for the same thing if there's no difference? The idea is to save money AND get a good product and that is what the majority of the internet direct companies offer - VALUE.

I agree. The idea is to "save money." So if you can save money on quality cables anywhere, then do so. Because there is "no difference."

I understand where you're coming from, but it is a privately run site and they can do whatever they want with it. That is the caveat for posting in a forum like this - though it is public, it is not owned by the members.

I agree. But the members spend more time helping than anyone. They deserve some respect when they are correct. And new members deserve respect when they go to the trouble of joining for advice. That is why most join.

 

[miklorsmith]

Stevo137 - Many or most here think a carrot will sound as good as a quality cable if you could figure out how to connect it to your rig. You will be ridiculed and asked ad nauseum about how you "know" your perceptions are correct. Same with amps, CDP's, and anything else save speakers and acoustics.

Just a warning . . .

 

[Audioholics]

This site...

Are you talking about us? Where did this come from - you can't be serious?

 

[zumbo]

Are you talking about us? Where did this come from - you can't be serious?

LOL! That's pretty good.

This is meant as to be constructive. Not destructive.

 

[stevo137]

Stevo137 - Many or most here think a carrot will sound as good as a quality cable if you could figure out how to connect it to your rig. You will be ridiculed and asked ad nauseum about how you "know" your perceptions are correct. Same with amps, CDP's, and anything else save speakers and acoustics.

Just a warning . . .

Miklorsmith, ty for your response.
My simple answer would be "I know by what I hear or see."
Perhaps sometimes technical knowledge and logic outweighs the end result, the actual sound itself...
Many areas of this this whole thing are subjective anyway. What sounds good to one might not sound as good to another.
What is the bottom line anyway? Are you enjoying what you spend your hard earned $ on?
I know that I am. Is my system considered the best? No, but this is not my only interest and I feel that I have done well in deciding which components give me the most for my money.

 

[jaxvon]

Stevo137 - Many or most here think a carrot will sound as good as a quality cable if you could figure out how to connect it to your rig. You will be ridiculed and asked ad nauseum about how you "know" your perceptions are correct. Same with amps, CDP's, and anything else save speakers and acoustics.

Just a warning . . .

I personally prefer the baby carrots. They offer lower resistance than the full-sized ones.

Kidding aside, I personally believe that any component can make a difference in the sound. However, I honestly can't believe that magic cables will make a difference unless they're designed with outrageous electrical parameters that attenuate/exaggerate certain frequencies.

As far as my opinion on this thread, I'm inclined to agree. Gene and Clint don't seem to take too well to criticism. I specifically remember a thread questioning the ethics of their product reviews that ended up with half-*** answers and dodging questions. Still, it's much better than a lot of places and the forum community is really pretty good. So I think I'll stay.

 

[Resident Loser]

Kindly take note of the word he used...

Stevo137 - Many or most here think a carrot will sound as good as a quality cable if you could figure out how to connect it to your rig. You will be ridiculed and asked ad nauseum about how you "know" your perceptions are correct. Same with amps, CDP's, and anything else save speakers and acoustics.

Just a warning . . .

..."difference"...that is key...if that difference is more pleasing to you, fine...that is strictly subjective and anecdotal in nature and not supported with any hard evidence with which to make sweeping generalities with regard to their (more specifically i.e. aftermarket wires) efficacy, as is oftimes the case.

Most gear can be made to sound different, I don't think that is the issue.

jimHJJ(...nobody ever get's it right...)

 

[Tom Andry]

LOL! That's pretty good.

This is meant as to be constructive. Not destructive.

Wow, I know that vocal inflections are lost when typing but I took your post the same way Clint did. Seemed pretty inflammatory to me but I'm having a bad day and need to stay away from the computer for a while.

Oh, and Jaxvon, I personally take attacks against my ethics very seriously. I know that I try to respond to each attack in as professional and courteous a manor as possible...sometimes that means biting your tongue and saying nothing.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

This site will not let you correct a mistake they have made.

This site overrates web only products.

This site underrates popular brands.

This site calls brands like Monster snake-oil, and then pushes web-only cables that cost as much, if not, more. There is no difference in sound with any cable.

This site claims to be the place for help, and then, they state not to post a brand(a) product compared to brand(b) product. I guess they think their review is the gospel, and you shouldn't ask anyone else.

This site will not reply to a thread. They wait until someone questions something they dissagree with, and then, there they are. And then, they will never admit they made a mistake. They try to end the thread with a reply that looks as though it was written by a lawyer. And, if that doesn't work, they lock it.

This site threatens to ban anyone who calls them out on any of the above.

I would say to all members new and old, don't let someone push a web only product. Go with your gut. I have been like a little robot pushing AVS and HSU. I am sure they will blow someone away when they get one that is twice the size of what they had, but I doubt they are any better than another brand with similar specs and size.

I can go on-and-on about brands this site backs, and I understand it's a business. But without members, there is no site.

I would like to see this site give a little more respect to it's members, new and old. Many members are very, very sharp. I have seen members I think are very knowledgeable get dissed by the mods. I have seen many new members come in and get dissed right off the bat. Or, they get made-out to be dumbasses.

I have been into audio for tweny+ years. It's hard to keep up with new technology. If you miss a day, you miss alot.

People need to be 100% certain the product they are spending their money on is going to serve it's purpose. Many of these top-shelf products suck. A product may have the ability to use a certain connection, or playback a certain format. But they can suck at it as well. A product may claim the ultimate in hum rejection, and you get the hum anyway. A product may claim to go down to 13Hz, but suck at reproducing a much needed 50-60Hz. A product may claim to be 4ohm, but not dip as low as one said to be 8ohm. It goes on-and-on.

The moral of the story, don't be fooled.

Hi zumbo,

I belive if you make an accusation you should give examples (plural) to prove your arguement. This is also a constructive statement. I just think it would define/frame your constructive criticisim in a more favorable light and minimize comments from members that might misunderstand where you are coming from.

You have been a valuable member IMO and I don't want to see you "go down in flames" because of a misunderstanding.

I am reserving comment until you summit more specific info.

SBF1

 

[jaxvon]

Oh, and Jaxvon, I personally take attacks against my ethics very seriously. I know that I try to respond to each attack in as professional and courteous a manor as possible...sometimes that means biting your tongue and saying nothing.

I wasn't questioning your ethics Tom, though it does sound like I was implying that. I was implying the thread where the general product selection for review was questioned. If memory serves correctly, not too many good answers were offered. I also believe that you were not performing product reviews at the time.

 

[zumbo]

Hi zumbo,

I belive if you make an accusation you should give examples (plural) to prove your arguement. This is also a constructive statement. I just think it would define/frame your constructive criticisim in a more favorable light and minimize comments from members that might misunderstand where you are coming from.

You have been a valuable member IMO and I don't want to see you "go down in flames" because of a misunderstanding.

I am reserving comment until you summit more specific info.

SBF1

Most of my rant has been over a three year period not involving myself much.

I will list what was the breaking point.

8ohm vs 4ohm shootout thread http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19359

I would like to see two similar speakers rated at the same sesitivity, but different ohms, put to the test. Check in room spl at the same level from the same source to see which speaker is louder. I know there are tons of technical formulas to give an answer, but is there time to do a real world test. Or, has this been done already?

What's the point? If the speakers are identical only one has a 4 ohm impedance profile and the other an 8 ohm profile then they will play equally loud if driven at the same power level.

Realize however if the amp is putting out 1 watt to an 8 ohm speaker and you suddenly switch to the 4 ohm speaker, you will now be delivering 2 watts to the 4 ohm speaker and thus your SPL will increase 3dB. This of course assumes your amp acts like an ideal voltage source (which most don't especially at high power levels).

What you have to realize however is a speaker is NOT like a resistor. The impedance rating is merely an average and sometimes fudged #. If a manufacturer makes a speaker whose impedance fluctuates from 4-16 ohms in the audio band but has a reasonably high efficiency (> 90dB), they may rate it 8 ohms instead of 4. You also have to look at electrical phase to see how tough of a reactive load it will represent to the amplifier.

I am just trying to shed some light on an overlooked point. Most people are pointed away from a 4ohm speaker because everyone speaks of how hard they are to drive. The way I look at it, it's a form of cheating to get the most out of a well made amp. I don't have an extra set of similar speakers to do the test. But, because of how the impedance fluctuates, I would like to see the outcome. I know it would only matter based on the two speakers being used, but I would love to see it.

I just don't pick a speaker because it's 8ohm. I pick one because I like the way it sounds. If it's 4ohm, I choose the best match I can afford to drive it. Many people are missing out on a variety of great sounding speakers by limiting their choices. I just feel there are more positive points of a 4 ohm speaker that are missed, and I would like to see some of those things shown to support these companies who make such fine products.

From the Audioholics OOPS? thread http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19452

Geez I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long.

The intent of that comment was to tell the reader to only apply bass management (BM) at one device. Most receivers don't have bass management on their EXT inputs, so in that case, use the DVD player's BM functions. In the case where the receiver can do BM in the analog domain, if the person chooses to use the receivers BM, then they should bypass the DVD players BM by setting all of the speakers to large. I hope this clears this up.

The more I think about it, the more this bothers me.

In the above statement, you again say "at one device". Then you say "Most receivers don't have bass management on their EXT inputs, so in that case, use the DVD player's BM functions." Most is the keyword here.

The second sentence is opposite of what you said in the first.

The bass management in a dvd player only applies to the multi-channel analog out.

The bass management in most receivers is bypassed using multi-channel analog in.

A correction needs to be made in yuns link I posted. Why is it soooo hard for this site to be corrected? I have seen many members find mistakes, and I have never once seen any of you say there was a mistake. That is not very cool. Your reply looks bad.

 

[thoward4444]

I, like Stevo137, am a novice and I am new to home audio. I do not have nearly the experience of most of the members on this site, but everyone has always been very helpful and never condescending toward me. I usually browse the site and read the newsgroups a few times a week because i have learned so much from the coversations more experienced members have.

I just want to throw my perspective out there. My expereince on the site has been nothing short of fantastic. I also like to read about SheepStar. That dude is funny as hell.

 

[Audioholics]

I personally don't think we'll get much constructiveness out of this thread for a few reasons:

1) There is a lot of generalization and sweeping statements made in the first post. And apparently my surprise at the topic wasn't to be taken seriously.

2) Whether our members like it or not, this is a small company - i.e. opinions and criticism is great, but we only have so many resources so answering everyone's posts is simply not possible. I think that personally answering over 200 emails and PMs a week is pretty good for a handful of staffers, but I understand that the desire will always be for more. You may be confusing our lack of participation in the forums for lack of time investment on the site in general. This would be incorrect.

3) What tends to set us off are Monday morning quarterbacks and people who don't see the whole picture of what we're doing... or appreciate the balance we have to walk. If anyone would want to set up a grant foundation for us to work from I'd love to chat.

4) We're not always right, but this isn't a democracy either.

5) I haven't seen much in the way of private, helpful suggestions along the way (or as a precursor to this post) and I am not sure how much more time and energy Gene and I will have in catering to those suggestions if offered. This is especially true for suggestions which may be shortsighted in terms of how they play out with our total potential time investment in Audioholics.

There seems to be 2 Audioholics communities: the main site and the forums. Our forums are picking up quite a bit lately, but realize that we're also catering to an "anonymous" crowd of millions with our reviews and technical articles.

6) Anyone is free to leave if they are dissatisfied - we'll even offer a full refund of you rmembership fee. Anyone is also equally free to contact us privately with any gripes (we just don't guarantee we'll have time or inclination to respond - if this offends you we'll just apologize in advance).

It all comes back to the question of what exactly is the intention of the steam vent. Some think it's a free for all, but I would argue that it may not be a place I'm willing to pay to have myself be criticized carte blanche.

Life is too short and we're far too busy trying to give our all.

 

[zumbo]

I have listed my gripe above in post #15. It is legit. I am fully aware that I can leave. I have before. But, I love this site, and spend a large amount of time here.

I did not ask for anyone to spend more time here.

I asked for a little respect for peoples personal opinions and preferences.

And, I asked for yuns to acknowledge a correction. That isn't what I got. I got BS. And I am not the first one. I have no way of posting my past references, put I did post the present. And, if the past problems didn't concern me, I wouldn't post them anyway.

But, I have to say, this is proving my complaint over again. I have been told I could leave, as if there is no concern about the points before you.

 

[Audioholics]

Wow. I was privy to the PMs and threads you pulled from and we are essentially trying to head off a potential for misinformation regarding loudspeaker impedance and bass management (other thread).

We didn't correct the "Basic Audio & Video Set-Up Guide" because the intent of the article seemed very clear to us (being designed for very entry level users). It didn't get into analogue multichannel SACD or DVD-Audio at all.

We're wrong on occasion, but we didn't want to make corrections to an article geared towards entry-level users who probably don't know SACD from vinyl. Or allow a huge discussion about 4-ohm speakers vs 8-ohm since its a non-essential comparison metric - we already have amplifier manufacturers catering to the all-channels-driven tests (to the detriment of real world metrics) due to misinformed consumer feedback.

I'm sorry you felt slighted - we just have to call it as we see it - and now I've just spent time I should have been using to finish up the RX-V2600 review...

 

[zumbo]

Wow. I was privy to the PMs and threads you pulled from and we are essentially trying to head off a potential for misinformation regarding loudspeaker impedance and bass management (other thread).

We didn't correct the "Basic Audio & Video Set-Up Guide" because the intent of the article seemed very clear to us (being designed for very entry level users). It didn't get into analogue multichannel SACD or DVD-Audio at all.

I totally understand the point of the A/V set-up guide. I used it. Then, I got my cables for dvd-a, and the mess hit the fan. So, once I figured-out the problem with my bass management, I started the thread. My findings were correct, and meant to help anyone using dvd-a/sacd. The response I got from Gene was not good, to say the least.

As for the 8ohm vs 4ohm, it's intent was for support of the speaker companies who get shunned with the shallow statements by many members about the speakers. I wanted, in some way, to wake people up to many fine 4ohm speakers that are overlooked.

Both of my threads were positive, informative, helpful, and correct. Why should I get such poor replies from this site?