Thinking of returning my Axiom m80s...

Resident Loser

Resident Loser

Senior Audioholic
And this tells me what?

nav said:
...There are a couple issues with frequency response and listener distance that simple level matching will have no effect upon.

Firstly, real-world drivers have varying radiation patterns at different frequencies. For a particular frequency, a measurement made at an angle relative to the driver's axis of motion may have a different level of output; and the relative output at each angle will be different for every frequency! Though what I wrote does little to explain the mechanics, this is why drivers tend to "beam" as they reproduce a higher frequency. The crossover design can affect how prevalent this is with a certain speaker quite a bit.

Secondly, when utilizing multiple drivers in a near-field situation ("sitting too close") the listener will have a substantially different angle between their ears and each driver. For speakers not designed for this, odd relative peaks and dips in frequency response are simply to be expected.

Thirdly, baffle reflection of a large object ("speaker") relative to a smaller object can play into other oddities.

This is all without even getting into acoustic reflections due to the room...

Edit: tweaked for a more apt quotation.
Tweeters beam? No...really? Some more than others...Do we have any waterfall graphs or polar dipersion patterns to consult with?

Re: "Near-field radiators"? Multiple drivers of the same type in proximity of each other may certainly have minor differences vis a' vis propagation and reception angles (I think JNeutron could provide the required math), but I think any manufacturer worth it's salt would go to great pains to match the drivers characteristics when using them in multiples...and I also think there would be a certain amount of resultant comb-filtering effects that would be taken into account during the products' design.

Again, even in close proximity (is a 6-foot leg acceptible?), with that eqilateral triangle and commensurate at-ear-measured SPL levels corresponding to that distance, there should be no difference as far as I can see...in fact the Axiom site touches on near field listening, and while they cite use of bookshelf-type systems, floorstanders will work within the same ratio parameters...in fact those near field situations tend to ameliorate some of those direct/reflected sound issues, which is probably why studios tend to favor monitors within two-meters of the listener.

And...those SPLs are important...what sounds good and measures well @85dB level, can be found lacking at other levels...The entire FR can change as Fletcher-Munson shows us and any driver anomolies i.e. "beaming" can be exacerbated.

Are there better choices? Genelec 1032s come to mind...they're even internally bi-amped...plug in your source and your good to go...of course using MP3s and other cr@pola sources would seem to be rather foolish. And they ain't cheap.

Even lesser quality, smaller loudspeakers (typified with 4-6in. woofers) when placed in close proximity of the listener can provide quite satisfactory and balanced performance...Again it's those at-ear SPLs...Distance requires higher power and and also brings room effects into the picture...obviously you won't get any visceral, floor-shaking lows, but it has been my experience that the tweeters will not be required to broadcast a reasonably hemispheric soundfield for any great distance, which is what usually taxes their abilities to produce a cohesive, non-beaming wavefront.

Possible problems (beyond room treatments), as I see them:

Too loud...

Bad program material...

A 4 Ohm speaker causing problems with the amplification...

Perhaps too accurate, too linear, too dry and analytical, particularly in the near-field app...

Personally, I have found systems that produce an extended, reasonably flat FR to be hard and harsh in character and would always opt for a gentle roll-off above 10kHz thinking it sounds much more natural and musical.

So...are the OPs speaks overkill...well, maybe but there's no reason (at least I can't see any) they can't (at reasonable at-ear SPLs) be quite suitable.

jimHJJ(...and that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...)
 
Resident Loser

Resident Loser

Senior Audioholic
Rest easy...

tomd51 said:
It is??:confused: Well, then they got me... :eek: -TD
Engine break-in is no myth...those hundreds of moving parts have to "get happy" with their operating environment...Ever change parts? Many, like serpentine drive belts, need readjustment as they "break-in". New cars used to come with "break-in" oil that needed to be changed at a specific point...newer oils with their additives eliminated that facet of ownership...Although if one consults their owners manual (like we all should do with our stereo gear) the mfrs. recommend specific operating behaviors be observed so as not to overtax the mechanicals.

It's hi-fi "burn-in/break-in" that's for the most part bunk...

jimHJJ(...and usually extends beyond the return privilege limits...)
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
The internals of a modern car engine are pretty solid and are they not going to "fail" early because of how you drive it in the first hundred miles IMO. How often you take it to red line is more to the point in an engines longetivety.

Nick
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
That's the impression I was under, thks for the clarification.

Without going into any great detail, I just assumed (yeah, I know, bad word to use..:D) the moving parts of an engine, coupled with the amount of movement of certain parts and need for lubrication, would in fact physically change the moving parts from when it was brand-spankin' new off the assembly line to when it can be and is used on a daily basis.

Of course, this has little to nothing to do with speaker "break-in" or the rest of this thread... :D -TD
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I noticed you were using your computer as a source.

What *material* are you using? If you're playing from CD, you're using your CD-ROM's super cheap D/A converter and your sound card's super-cheap and noisy analog outputs. If you're using MP3s, they won't sound good unless you encode at very high bit rates.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
BTW, engine break in is a real phenomena and widely recognized by autmobile and motorcycle manufacturers and mechanics.
 
nav

nav

Audioholic
Resident Loser said:
Tweeters beam? No...really? Some more than others...Do we have any waterfall graphs or polar dipersion patterns to consult with?
Drivers (of any sort, we're just more sensitive at higher frequencies) won't if they're used inside of the proper frequency range. Axiom most assuredly has taken, as any decent manufacturer would, such things into consideration, I'm sure. I was just using the same reason that drivers may "beam" as an example of how multi-driver speakers may by-design be poorly suited for near-field listening.

Resident Loser said:
Re: "Near-field radiators"? Multiple drivers of the same type in proximity of each other may certainly have minor differences vis a' vis propagation and reception angles (I think JNeutron could provide the required math), but I think any manufacturer worth it's salt would go to great pains to match the drivers characteristics when using them in multiples...and I also think there would be a certain amount of resultant comb-filtering effects that would be taken into account during the products' design.
Absolutely, I'd think so too. I'm really, really not trying to bad-mouth these particular Axiom speakers (or you! :p ), I was just giving some real-physics examples of how one speaker could be less suited for near-field listening than another, in response to what I perceived as a statement that "too much speaker" -- while assuredly vague, I cannot really argue there -- is a purely fallacious statement. I think we'd both agree on the potential for such :).

Resident Loser said:
And...those SPLs are important...what sounds good and measures well @85dB level, can be found lacking at other levels...The entire FR can change as Fletcher-Munson shows us and any driver anomolies i.e. "beaming" can be exacerbated.
I've never really thought about SPL-to-listener's-FR variation, if that's what you meant. Something to read about :).

Resident Loser said:
Possible problems (beyond room treatments), as I see them:
Too loud...
Bad program material...
A 4 Ohm speaker causing problems with the amplification...
Agreed, all potentials. I would agree with anyone guessing the room is likely the biggest issue here though.

Resident Loser said:
Personally, I have found systems that produce an extended, reasonably flat FR to be hard and harsh in character and would always opt for a gentle roll-off above 10kHz thinking it sounds much more natural and musical.
I honestly can't say what I'd prefer. I think I've only personally listened to one speaker that I've seen a trustworthy frequency response graph and only a couple pairs of headphones. I can definitely see the merit in not-entirely-flat frequency response designed for a type of listener's taste or planned for a particular environment (especially the latter).
 
robot

robot

Junior Audioholic
OK

After comparing the two speakers for a few days I have decided that I am very happy with the 603's sound. They do sound different than in the showroom, my acoustics are indeed terrible. You can of course tell that it is the same speaker. The beautiful and accurate highs are still there. The midrange is still clear and amazing. The bass is super clean, tight, and has a lot of impact. I can't say any of these things about the m80s... (except that the m80 has a lot of bass impact...)

The difference between the two isn't night and day... it's just enough for me to stop listening to the speakers and start listening to the music.

The m80s are louder and can play lower, but at the same time the highs are just as piercing and disproportionate when the volume is up high. I think maybe the m80 is designed for an older generation of people who have lost some of their ability to hear high frequency sound.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Perhaps I missed it, but did you at any point detail your source?
 
robot

robot

Junior Audioholic
jonnythan said:
Perhaps I missed it, but did you at any point detail your source?
I probably did... I have a Denon 1703 dvd player hooked up with fancy cables. My computer has a Creative X-Fi X-treme Music sound card which I understand has a fairly decent DAC. I'm just using a cheapo $10 minijack to RCA cable to connect it. It sounds pretty good. With CDs I think you can notice a bit more detail but I haven't done any super serious tests. The sound from the soundcard is quite acceptable.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
How do you have your speakers set up now? Try putting the towers as far away from you as possible.

SheepStar
 
robot

robot

Junior Audioholic
Sheep said:
How do you have your speakers set up now? Try putting the towers as far away from you as possible.

SheepStar
I posted a picture of the new setup a few pages back...

I moved them back almost a foot and that seems to have really opened them up... I can already tell the imaging is greatly improved. I feel like I'm sitting in the music. Thanks for the tip :)
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
robot said:
I probably did... I have a Denon 1703 dvd player hooked up with fancy cables. My computer has a Creative X-Fi X-treme Music sound card which I understand has a fairly decent DAC. I'm just using a cheapo $10 minijack to RCA cable to connect it. It sounds pretty good. With CDs I think you can notice a bit more detail but I haven't done any super serious tests. The sound from the soundcard is quite acceptable.
When you play CDs, you're using the super-shitty DAC in the CD-rom, connected with a super-tiny, thin gauge analog cable to the sound card's analog input line.

That could easily explain the poor sound.

I'd rip CDs using lossless FLAC or 320kbps MP3 and listen to that before making any judgements.
 
robot

robot

Junior Audioholic
jonnythan said:
When you play CDs, you're using the super-shitty DAC in the CD-rom, connected with a super-tiny, thin gauge analog cable to the sound card's analog input line.

That could easily explain the poor sound.

I'd rip CDs using lossless FLAC or 320kbps MP3 and listen to that before making any judgements.
..... no when I play CDs I'm using my DVD player... :confused:

And even if I did play them in my CD burner or DVD drive I would be hearing digital audio from the disc. Nobody uses the analog output on the drive anymore... I don't know how long it's been like that.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
robot said:
..... no when I play CDs I'm using my DVD player... :confused:

And even if I did play them in my CD burner or DVD drive I would be hearing digital audio from the disc. Nobody uses the analog output on the drive anymore... I don't know how long it's been like that.
How do you have your CD drive hooked up inside your computer?

Every computer I've ever seen that wasn't custom built uses the same old cheap 4-pin analog audio cable for the CD drive.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
jonnythan said:
How do you have your CD drive hooked up inside your computer?

Every computer I've ever seen that wasn't custom built uses the same old cheap 4-pin analog audio cable for the CD drive.
Every Dell I've seen for the past few years has used the IDE cable only. And besides, you only use the crappy analog out if you're using the default OS CD player.
 
robot

robot

Junior Audioholic
Yeah both my drives are only hooked up via ide cables. No analog CD audio cables to be found, though the jacks are there. Windows Media Player plays CDs just fine.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
robot said:
OK

After comparing the two speakers for a few days I have decided that I am very happy with the 603's sound. They do sound different than in the showroom, my acoustics are indeed terrible. You can of course tell that it is the same speaker. The beautiful and accurate highs are still there. The midrange is still clear and amazing. The bass is super clean, tight, and has a lot of impact. I can't say any of these things about the m80s... (except that the m80 has a lot of bass impact...)

The difference between the two isn't night and day... it's just enough for me to stop listening to the speakers and start listening to the music.

The m80s are louder and can play lower, but at the same time the highs are just as piercing and disproportionate when the volume is up high. I think maybe the m80 is designed for an older generation of people who have lost some of their ability to hear high frequency sound.
Congratulations, sounds like you made the right choice, then. If at some point you are able to add room treatment, I think you'll enjoy your new speakers even more. You'd be surprised how much of a difference a few acoustic panels can make. And they can be added fairly affordably, and taken with you when you move.

Jack
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah

I think that the acoustic panels will have a dual purpose. They can sub as abstract art untill he gets some furnishing in place:D .
 

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