Thinking of returning my Axiom m80s...

[PENG]

I used to think that for CD/DVD the source is not that important until I began to own my 6th CD/DVD player not including those in my computers. Of the 6 that I have in the house, the 2nd cheapest one sound the worst. It sounds so much worse than the others that I am sure anyone can tell the difference even in a triple blind test.

Try using a CD player or a decent DVD player to play your music CDs before you return the M80. That said, I don't think you can go wrong with B&W.

 

[robot]

While your listening area might be 2000 cf, sitting on top of speakers this size in the setup you have doesn't allow any breathing room, so I can definitely see how they'd seem forward or bright. I'd expect almost any decent sized bookshelf or tower size speaker that wasn't a satellite/cube to seem a bit forward at this distance.

While some room is treated as you noted, the bare walls and ceiling will produce quite a bit of reflection, altering the mid and high frequencies. You'd be amazed at how much a bookshelf, chair, sofa, even fake silk tree difuses the sound. I think the brightness is more a localization issue than room.

Just out of curiosity, when you've demo'ed the B&Ws, are you as close when listening to them and doing so at the same listening levels? This, along with having them in the same location (distance from left to right as well as from the speaker to you) will give you a better comparision between the two.

Room treatments will make a difference, but unless your able to compare apples to apples, both the B&Ws and Axioms in the same room, in the same location, at the same listening level, you'll have a tough time getting a good comparison... -TD

I've listened to the speakers from virtually every possible location in my apartment. They are most detailed around 5 ft in front. Further back and they become more bright but less detailed in the highs and mids, and more bassy. How much of this is because of my room I'm not too sure. I would like to get a side by side comparison...

Today I listened to some Paradigm Studio 60s. After all the great things everybody has to say about them I was very suprised at the sound. They sounded harsh and not very detailed again. The room was a lot larger than mine, but it sounded about the same with the slap test.

I went to listen to the 603s shortly afterwards and it felt like I was coming home. I listened to them in a lot of different positions and a lot of listening levels, all sounded amazing. I can't say enough good things about that speaker.

I've had pretty good success with the m80s by draping socks over the tweeters like so:

 

[robot]

...the whole thread but, did you try to toe-out the cabinets...I recall a remark about "sitting higher makes it worse" or some such...the on-axis response levels might be the problem...

And of course, here's the 64 cent question: do you have tone controls?

jimHJJ(...jus' wunnerin'...)

Yeah I've tried toeing them out and playing with the tone controls... so far I like them best toed in like that.

 

[gene]

I went to listen to the 603s shortly afterwards and it felt like I was coming home. I listened to them in a lot of different positions and a lot of listening levels, all sounded amazing. I can't say enough good things about that speaker.

Than these are the speakers you should get.

I've had pretty good success with the m80s by draping socks over the tweeters like so:

Now that is comedy

 

[gene]

They need as close to an anechoic space as possible.

That's the best environment for measurements but the worst environment for listening.

You should NOT have a floorstanding speaker in such a small room. Your M80s are too close together and I bet that beer bottle on the floor is really messing things up, especially since its empty

 

[Zer0beaT]

Please return those monstrous speakers for the M22's with stands and a sub like the EP350. You will be much happier with this setup in that size of room.

The M80's are for crazy people (I'm jealouse of y'all!) with huge rooms that play their movies at maximum volumes with their gajillion watt amp! I have M60's in a 20' x 14' room and they aren't to far from overkill, I was using the M22's before as my mains and they had no problem sounding huge and accurate at ridiculous volumes (awesome speakers btw), but more importantly their sweet spot is more suited to a small-medium sized room than an M80.

The fact that you have resorted to stuffing socks in the bass ports and over the tweeter proves the M80 is wayyyyyyyyyy to much speaker for your situtation.

One thing is for sure. You don't like the M80's, so return them before your trial period ends and either exchange them for the M22's or get your money back and head down to the local hi-fi.

 

[robot]

The fact that you have resorted to stuffing socks in the bass ports and over the tweeter proves the M80 is wayyyyyyyyyy to much speaker for your situtation.

Thanks for the advice, I've decided to send these back and get B&W 603s with no sub.

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for the advice, I've decided to send these back and get B&W 603s with no sub.

Let me know when those B&Ws come in. If the roads are better I'll pop by.

SheepStar

 

[Resident Loser]

Well...

Yeah I've tried toeing them out and playing with the tone controls... so far I like them best toed in like that.

...just some observations:

The perceived FR of the speakers is relative...raise the bass and you lower the treble...and vice-versa

Since you've plugged the bass ports, you have already said you've lost some bottom end...losing that bottom upsets the overall system balance, exacerbating your hi freq woes.

I see the manufacturer does not suggest placement guidelines...How did you arrive at the placement?

Also, the representative FR graph at the website indicates extended and quite flat hi-freq response...unfortunately there is no polar response info...my suggestion for toeing-in, was based on the probable difference between on-axis and off-axis response charateristics...

Take it from experience, if you are trying to set up a balanced-sounding system, the worst thing you can use is music...there are too many vagaries source to source and even within the same source...

Then there's that headache machine, i.e. your room...not only do you have the bare walls to contend with, but that window et al is a nightmare...get some drapes.

IMHO, you need to address the room and placement issues using measurements and not just software and your ears...it's the only way you will get an accurate baseline from whence to proceed.

jimHJJ(...been there, done that...)

 

[Resident Loser]

Curious that...

You should NOT have a floorstanding speaker in such a small room. Your M80s are too close together and I bet that beer bottle on the floor is really messing things up, especially since its empty

...Other loudspeakers will be further apart? How?

Why not floorstanders? Whether they are bookshleves or small monitors w/a sub or these, why the absolute, and emphatic NOT? I am of the opinion that the size and shape of a loudspeaker is, for the most part, irrelevant...I mean were not talkin' Klipschorns here...

jimHJJ(...jus' wunnerin'...)

 

[Audioholics]

...Other loudspeakers will be further apart? How?

Why not floorstanders?

The room is too small to have all of those drivers firing all over the place and compounding the reflection issues he is having. M80s also can require a wider stance than M22s in order to image properly.

 

[Resident Loser]

Aaaaa...errrr...

The room is too small to have all of those drivers firing all over the place and compounding the reflection issues he is having. M80s also can require a wider stance than M22s in order to image properly.

Not trying to be a PITA but...all the drivers seem to be aligned on the same center-line and I assume all drivers have the same dispersion pattern within their type, so what am I missing here? It's just a division of labor, isn't it?

Insofar as imaging is concerned, in my experience, as long as an equilateral triangle is maintained between the listener and the loudspeakers, imaging hasn't been an issue...and again, removing that toe-in should produce a wider aural stance with minimal effect on a suitable image...and again, again...using some proper instrumentation (rather than music)couldn't hurt.

While one certainly wouldn't try to fill a large room using computer desktop units, why would larger units (within reason, obviously) not be accomodated by a small room? Of course, I am of the opinion that the room will have to be tamed even if the B&Ws are chosen, that room is a sonic nightmare.

If the listener/speaker relationship is maintained and the SPLs at the listening position are at reasonable levels, I can't see where there would be any problem...The manufacturer states no placement guidelines as far as I can determine and using them as near-field radiators would seem to present no real problem either...Obviously some common sense is required, does one want high volume from smaller enclosures or more reasonable levels from larger ones without any sense of strain?

I myself think they are out-of-scale for the room, but more for the visual aspects than anything else.

When I see other borderline-idiotic comments re: a smaller sweet spot and too much speaker, it really makes me wonder.

jimHJJ(...just my two cents...)

 

[Audioholics]

When I see other borderline-idiotic comments re: a smaller sweet spot and too much speaker, it really makes me wonder.

You don't have to wonder, you can ask questions. A multi-driver speaker does not work the same as a smaller 2-way design - especially in a confined space. Those extra speakers cause additional reflections and issues due to more source propagation points. It makes it much harder to tame the room. There is more than just volume going on here.

I'll ask Gene to write an article on this to help people understand the importance of speaker selection in varying room types.

 

[robot]

While one certainly wouldn't try to fill a large room using computer desktop units, why would larger units (within reason, obviously) not be accomodated by a small room? Of course, I am of the opinion that the room will have to be tamed even if the B&Ws are chosen, that room is a sonic nightmare.

I think the term 'sonic nightmare' is a bit strong for my room. I think having the mattress (foam mattress even) and duvet right in front of the speakers really helps. Sure the acoustics aren't great but in terms of the slap test it's no worse than some of the rooms at a local hifi shop I went to yesterday (and heard the Studio 60s in). Their reason for not damping the rooms like crazy was "we don't worry about it too much... not too many people want to put the time into treating their home rooms anyways". Their rooms did have some sound absorbing panels, but nothing too intense.

After another few hours of listening I'm actually starting to like the sound of the m80s with the ports blocked and socks on the tweets.

 

[Resident Loser]

Sorry Clint...

...Not trying to be argumentative here, I still don't see it...Are they more suited to a larger room? Probably, but I'm still thinkin' more of that division of labor thing and greater power handling capabilities for higher SPLs...

Sorta' like the diff between a solo instrument and a pair...except for the fact that the drivers (particularly the tweets) are less than 5" apart...I would think the design goal to be a smoother and more extended high end...and if the FR graphs @the Axiom site are to be believed, that's what seems to have happened...if one compares their three floorstanders and the M22s, it is well evidenced.

They certainly wouldn't want the two individual tweets to be IDd as individual point sources, so to my mind it's that division of labor which would allow for a more linear response to a larger listening area...and the same with the mids...Insofar as the bass drivers are concerned, more radiating area via smaller and more responsive individual drivers would seem ideal and again, those graphs seem to bear that out, at least FR-wise.

Maybe somewhere along the line, a blinding epiphany will hit me, until then...

jimHJJ(...I am resolute in my POV...thanks...)

 

[Audioholics]

I still don't see it

Yes, I agree. That's one of the reasons it's apparent we need to write an article about it.

 

[Resident Loser]

Sorry...

I think the term 'sonic nightmare' is a bit strong for my room...

...didn't mean to insult the room...What part of the bare walls, picture window and vertical blinds shouldn't be considered a nightmare? All are highly reflective and the room response will probably change depending on whether the blinds are opened or closed...

And your duvet, etc. are roughly like having a throw rug, so what part of the tweeters output (roughly 30in. higher) is being tamed? You have to consider the hemispherical response characteristics...those tweeters are closer to the walls and windows than your pallet, reflections are happnin' way before your bed and it's linens have any effect. And what is your KB resting on? a nice hard coffee table or something? The effect is minimal at best...It's only slightly better than bare wood floors...

jimHJJ(...which are another problem BTW...)

 

[robot]

...didn't mean to insult the room...What part of the bare walls, picture window and vertical blinds shouldn't be considered a nightmare? All are highly reflective and the room response will probably change depending on whether the blinds are opened or closed...

And your duvet, etc. are roughly like having a throw rug, so what part of the tweeters output (roughly 30in. higher) is being tamed? You have to consider the hemispherical response characteristics...those tweeters are closer to the walls and windows than your pallet, reflections are happnin' way before your bed and it's linens have any effect. And what is your KB resting on? a nice hard coffee table or something? The effect is minimal at best...It's only slightly better than bare wood floors...

jimHJJ(...which are another problem BTW...)

Thanks for bringing these points up... don't be afraid of sounding offensive

The blinds are part of the apartment... I doubt I'll be replacing them any time soon. Sure they probably aren't as good as fabric for dampening sound but they seem to help a tiny bit with the low frequencies. Pretty much all of the high frequency sound comes out the front of the speaker anyways. Also, I believe toeing the speakers in has greatly reduced any wall reflections that can be heard from my main listening position. I believe most of the reflections I'm hearing are coming from behind the speakers (not much high frequencies there, mainly low) or the ceiling.

And no my keyboard is resting on my mattress not a coffee table or anything.

 

[nav]

Not trying to be a PITA but...all the drivers seem to be aligned on the same center-line and I assume all drivers have the same dispersion pattern within their type, so what am I missing here? It's just a division of labor, isn't it?

...

While one certainly wouldn't try to fill a large room using computer desktop units, why would larger units (within reason, obviously) not be accomodated by a small room? Of course, I am of the opinion that the room will have to be tamed even if the B&Ws are chosen, that room is a sonic nightmare.

Disclaimer: I'm not an EE nor any type of acoustics wizard. I'm slowly sinking deeper into the sciences as I read more (I last read through Introduction to Electroacoustics and Audio Amplifier Design; definitely an informative read), but I'm not yet worthy or capable of actually teaching others the little details. Please correct me if I say anything incorrect so that I don't mislead readers, but also so that I may learn myself (please site references, I love books ). Even if I'm largely correct (likely due to my intentional vagueness), please feel free to PM me book recommendations .

There are a couple issues with frequency response and listener distance that simple level matching will have no effect upon.

Firstly, real-world drivers have varying radiation patterns at different frequencies. For a particular frequency, a measurement made at an angle relative to the driver's axis of motion may have a different level of output; and the relative output at each angle will be different for every frequency! Though what I wrote does little to explain the mechanics, this is why drivers tend to "beam" as they reproduce a higher frequency. The crossover design can affect how prevalent this is with a certain speaker quite a bit.

Secondly, when utilizing multiple drivers in a near-field situation ("sitting too close") the listener will have a substantially different angle between their ears and each driver. For speakers not designed for this, odd relative peaks and dips in frequency response are simply to be expected.

Thirdly, baffle reflection of a large object ("speaker") relative to a smaller object can play into other oddities.

This is all without even getting into acoustic reflections due to the room...

Edit: tweaked for a more apt quotation.

 

[robot]

Firstly, real-world drivers have varying radiation patterns at different frequencies. For a particular frequency, a measurement made at an angle relative to the driver's axis of motion may have a different level of output; and the relative output at each angle will be different for every frequency!

Secondly, when utilizing multiple drivers in a near-field situation ("sitting too close") the listener will have a substantially different angle between their ears and each driver. For speakers not designed for this, odd relative peaks and dips in frequency response are simply to be expected.

Very insightful and well written.

Do you have any technical discussion on tweeter waveguides?