Thinking about adding an amp?

[mtrycrafts]

.....Mtrycrafts, once again, you need to go listen to speakers rated about 200, being pushed by about 750 headroom....until you do that and listen to reference levels, you won't know, will you....

Why would I need to listen to such insensitive speakers, or so loud that it would blow out MY eardrum?
I don't sit front row in a rock concert
And, just beacuse a speaker is rated to 200watts RMS, doesn't mean you cannot get reference levels well before that power, right? Or, you are just over driving and distorting a speaker to hell?

 

[mulester7]

Damned if this thread doesn't sound like esoteric cable proponents trying to explain the benefit of them to non believers. "fatter and fuller sound is a feel ....can't explain it you just feel it" so on and so forth.

.....snake oil, boys, step right up, get it while it's hot.....

 

[mulester7]

Why would I need to listen to such insensitive speakers, or so loud that it would blow out MY eardrum?
I don't sit front row in a rock concert
And, just beacuse a speaker is rated to 200watts RMS, doesn't mean you cannot get reference levels well before that power, right? Or, you are just over driving and distorting a speaker to hell?

.....nice questions, Mtrycrafts, based on thought....who said ear-splitting loud?....efficient or inefficient makes no difference.....

.....Mtrycrafts, you got 4 ohm mains?....order one of the QSC RMX 2450's for $599....you'll have 60 days to mail it back....I'll pay the shipping back....only Mtrycrafts, guys, haha, him bein' a Samurai and all....or, you could order that slave amp Jaxvon suggested that is 600 watts per at 8, for only $3900.....


.....edit....some are thinking no difference will be heard until reference levels....I assure you, you will hear the tighter low end, low, moderately, and, thrillingly, at reference levels....reference level doesn't mean offensively !LOUD!, or ear-taxing at all....straighten up.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

If you're into car audio, 9 out of 10 times, you get what you pay for.

Is that because those companies are honest, compared to home audio? They don't rely on marketing to get your attension and $$$?

Not necessarily. It's because these companies have done marketing research and found out the demographics of aftermarket car audio are primarily under 30 years of age, without the disposable incomes of those in the home audio market. Companies like Pyle and Pyramid are about as honest as some of the white van ht speaker companies (as far as specs go).

My point is that car amplifiers do sound different with similar specs. What makes home audio any different?

How similar? How is the car audio science different form home audio science??
Many want to know

Very similar. If you've ever installed car audio equipment, you'd know. How do you know when Pyle specs their car amps, they don't have a blender going on in the background? Do you think there's a government agency standing behind everyone testing audio equipment before it goes to market?

 

[MacManNM]

Not necessarily. It's because these companies have done marketing research and found out the demographics of aftermarket car audio are primarily under 30 years of age, without the disposable incomes of those in the home audio market. Companies like Pyle and Pyramid are about as honest as some of the white van ht speaker companies (as far as specs go).




Very similar. If you've ever installed car audio equipment, you'd know. How do you know when Pyle specs their car amps, they don't have a blender going on in the background? Do you think there's a government agency standing behind everyone testing audio equipment before it goes to market?

I would have to agree here. There are no documented standards that companies must adhere to when rating their equipment. There are some companies that actually try to be honest about it, but most are not. With published specs you are at the mercy of the integrity of the manufacturer. If you believe those, I have this bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you…….cheap.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

With published specs you are at the mercy of the integrity of the manufacturer. If you believe those, I have this bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you…….cheap.

Which bridge? How much? What are the specs?

 

[MacManNM]

Which bridge? How much? What are the specs?

I'll get right on that. What specs were you looking for? I'm sure I can make them fit.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....nice questions, Mtrycrafts, based on thought....who said ear-splitting loud?....efficient or inefficient makes no difference.....

.....Mtrycrafts, you got 4 ohm mains?....order one of the QSC RMX 2450's for $599....you'll have 60 days to mail it back....I'll pay the shipping back....only Mtrycrafts, guys, haha, him bein' a Samurai and all....or, you could order that slave amp Jaxvon suggested that is 600 watts per at 8, for only $3900.....


.....edit....some are thinking no difference will be heard until reference levels....I assure you, you will hear the tighter low end, low, moderately, and, thrillingly, at reference levels....reference level doesn't mean offensively !LOUD!, or ear-taxing at all....straighten up.....

Sensitivity is everything when it comes to the power game
The more sensitive the speaker, th eless power is needed.

Oh, that 700 watts would be more than ear splitting, It may be goodby to the speaker, and certainly for the tweeter. Maybe even that 200 watts as well, excet in a sub But then we are not talking subs, right?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Very similar. If you've ever installed car audio equipment, you'd know. How do you know when Pyle specs their car amps, they don't have a blender going on in the background? Do you think there's a government agency standing behind everyone testing audio equipment before it goes to market?

Well, the FTC is standing behind them. Other mag reviews and measurements CAN keep them honest or expose their fraud, no?
But we are not talking fradulent or incomplete spec sheets, right?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would have to agree here. There are no documented standards that companies must adhere to when rating their equipment. There are some companies that actually try to be honest about it, but most are not. With published specs you are at the mercy of the integrity of the manufacturer. If you believe those, I have this bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you…….cheap.

FTC has rules how to spec power. I am pretty sure it doesn't exclude car audio amps

 

[mulester7]

Oh, that 700 watts would be more than ear splitting, It may be goodby to the speaker, and certainly for the tweeter

.....Mtrycrafts, it's obvious you haven't heard speakers in comparison, AB, using two different amp sections with one rated about what the speakers are rated, and the other amp section is a minor AP&L sub-station.....

.....there is a HUGE difference in pulling 80 watts out of 120, and pulling 80 watts out of 750-1000....and sure, it's obvious, 750-1000 watts won't be put to the speakers....authority, fullness, and tightness of the low end is what you get when you sip off big watts....and again, the sensitivity of the speakers says you might be using 60 watts out of 750, or you might be using 90 watts out of 750, to get the same manifested spl count with your meter, if you ascribe to meters....

.....Mtrycrafts, you keep thinking along the lines I am pushing everything with FULL POWER with spl levels in the 130's....what's wrong with ya'?....huh?....and you can do all that winkin' with the little faces you want to, but until you hear the effects of serious headroom, you're only takin' pies in the face with your arguments in my view.......

.....a phone call this morning brought the news the installer at the car shop will be snowed under until later in the week....I will be there when they can help me hear the sealed boxes, no big deal....I am going to go ahead and order a Cadence X-Sub to play with....I can find a home for it later, if need be.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Ftc...lol

FTC has rules how to spec power. I am pretty sure it doesn't exclude car audio amps

The FTC. LOL. That's a joke, right? They're much too busy censoring freedom of speech on radio and tv to worry about the thousands of car audio amps out there. There's no money or fame in slapping penalties on electronics manufacturers for skewing specs and pulling the wool over consumers eyes. Why do you think publications like this, or Consumers Reports exist? Because the gov't is too small to police every little nook and cranny of what is sold in our market. You said it yourself. Mags and measurements can keep them honest, but how many mags do you know reviewing Plye, Audiovox, or Pyramid amps? They know better, and expect you to know better. Yet the specs are still right on the box. Visit your local KMart if you don't believe me.

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Is there an officer of the law sitting at every corner monitoring everyone's speed. C'mon. You know better than to use the FTC card.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The FTC. LOL. That's a joke, right? They're much too busy censoring freedom of speech on radio and tv to worry about the thousands of car audio amps out there. There's no money or fame in slapping penalties on electronics manufacturers for skewing specs and pulling the wool over consumers eyes. Why do you think publications like this, or Consumers Reports exist? Because the gov't is too small to police every little nook and cranny of what is sold in our market. You said it yourself. Mags and measurements can keep them honest, but how many mags do you know reviewing Plye, Audiovox, or Pyramid amps? They know better, and expect you to know better. Yet the specs are still right on the box. Visit your local KMart if you don't believe me.

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Is there an officer of the law sitting at every corner monitoring everyone's speed. C'mon. You know better than to use the FTC card.

I think I responded to this There are no documented standards that companies must adhere to when rating their equipment.

from MacmanNM, no?

Publications like this and others exist for other resons, not to police the FTC rules. After all, FTC doesn't write reviews, publish specs, and rate appliances or audio components, etc, right?
When FTC gets enough complaints, they usually act.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....there is a HUGE difference in pulling 80 watts out of 120, and pulling 80 watts out of 750-1000....and sure, it's obvious, 750-1000 watts won't be put to the speakers....authority, fullness, and tightness of the low end is what you get when you sip off big watts....and again, the sensitivity of the speakers says you might be using 60 watts out of 750, or you might be using 90 watts out of 750, to get the same manifested spl count with your meter, if you ascribe to meters....

Obviously you didn't do your due diligence when comparing those amps then.
That is do it correctly


.....Mtrycrafts, you keep thinking along the lines I am pushing everything with FULL POWER with spl levels in the 130's....what's wrong with ya'?....huh?.


You are the one insisting on the merits of such amps, what am I to assume? That you use normal listeing levels with 80dB spl average level?


...and you can do all that winkin' with the little faces you want to, but until you hear the effects of serious headroom, you're only takin' pies in the face with your arguments in my view.......

Yes, in your view. We all have our views but not all views of equal merit.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

FDA vs FTC, who do you trust more?

mtrycrafts: I think I responded to this There are no documented standards that companies must adhere to when rating their equipment.

from MacmanNM, no?

You said "FTC has rules how to spec power. I am pretty sure it doesn't exclude car audio amps." You are assuming manufacturers are following FTC's guidelines. Do you think that little shop in Jinan, China is worried about the FTC? Do you also belive companies follow FDA guidelines when producing prescription drugs? Process engineers never make mistakes, right? The FTC is no better than the FDA. Those bodies are not governed by science. They are governed by politics, PAC's, and the almighty dollar. You know that.

 

[mulester7]

You said "FTC has rules how to spec power. I am pretty sure it doesn't exclude car audio amps." You are assuming manufacturers are following FTC's guidelines. Do you think that little shop in Jinan, China is worried about the FTC? Do you also belive companies follow FDA guidelines when producing prescription drugs? Process engineers never make mistakes, right? The FTC is no better than the FDA. Those bodies are not governed by science. They are governed by politics, PAC's, and the almighty dollar. You know that.

.....and then there's the SEC dealing MIGHTILY against fraud and deception in the OTC:BB penny-stocks, haha....what a free-for-all....it takes an action in Civil Court, trust me, and them guys are good....their cash buys loootsa' credit, and decisions......

 

[mtrycrafts]

You said "FTC has rules how to spec power. I am pretty sure it doesn't exclude car audio amps." You are assuming manufacturers are following FTC's guidelines. Do you think that little shop in Jinan, China is worried about the FTC? Do you also belive companies follow FDA guidelines when producing prescription drugs? Process engineers never make mistakes, right? The FTC is no better than the FDA. Those bodies are not governed by science. They are governed by politics, PAC's, and the almighty dollar. You know that.

Why do you bypass the original questin? FTC has rules. That is the answer, not that it get broken or not. The jails are full of lawbreakers.

 

[majorloser]

I'm quite sure he's sick of reading by now!

Anybody who's thinking about making the jump to separates is on a good path. My only suggestion is buy quality. There are plenty of good deals out there on amps. When you start buying separate amps if gives you a chance to slowly built a "high end" performance system and move to multi-zone.

Once you make the next logical move to a separate processors you'll be able to make changes without the need for replacing amps. Some processors are even up-gradeable with new software and hardware.

NOTE: DON'T GANG F@#$ THE AMPS TOGETHER ON ONE POWER STRIP! Make the proper considerations for peak AC power requirements.

Now get out there and spend all your money!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MacManNM]

I think I responded to this There are no documented standards that companies must adhere to when rating their equipment.

from MacmanNM, no?

Publications like this and others exist for other resons, not to police the FTC rules. After all, FTC doesn't write reviews, publish specs, and rate appliances or audio components, etc, right?
When FTC gets enough complaints, they usually act.

I believe the subject at the time was car audio amps, I't doesn't matter because this ruling is so useless it might as well not even be here.
Here is the FTC rule on Home audio equipment:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/2000/12/amplifierrulefrn.pdf

There is no way they can enforce this. Plus there is lots of wiggle room in there. Just like the THD @1KHz, but there doesn’t seem to be any regulation on the full bandwidth measurements. It’s a joke, paper that is put in place just to shut people up.

There is absolutely nothing in the register that I can find on car audio, nor can I seem to find anything on pro audio.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

CEMA and Velodyne

Isn't it interesting how CEMA pushed for the 1000Hz test over full bandwidth at 6 ohms? Sadly, Velodyne wanted testing done at 4 ohms instead of 8.

There was quite a bit of info on the self powered combo satellite/subwoofer loudspeakers (HTIB's), which is a great start, but when consumers look at their specs, they still see 100 watts on junk speakers and sub-entry level receivers.

It's still a sham, a way manufacturers pull the wool over consumers eyes. Science and the FTC has very little to do with regulating specs on fair amplifier testing, whether we like it or not. Kudos to the manufacturers that state their power output accurately. We don't mind paying a little extra for "a bit of the truth."

Nice post Mac.