The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, I spent most of today comparing the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI Pre-Pro vs the $1,000 Denon X3100 used only as a pre-pro. Both were connected to the ATI amps and RBH SX-T2/R speakers. Direct Mode was used.

This wasn’t a blind test or instant switching, but they were both set to the same speaker Channel Level (SPL meter confirmed).

I listened to my usual music that I listen to most of the time.

Of course, this was not the first time comparing separates (analog preamps, pre-pros, integrated amps) to AVR.

I have to say that if the $7,500 AVP-A1 pre-pro sounded better than the $1,000 AVR at all, it was not night-and-day. IOW, I felt both sounded pretty equally great. I don’t think I could tell the difference in a double-blind test.

I would dare say that if I were to go back in time, I would have never bought the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI or $5,500 Denon AVR-5308CI. I would have just bought the Denon X3000 series on sale for $599.

I dare say.

Okay, time to watch some TV series.

 

[PENG]

Well, I spent most of today comparing the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI Pre-Pro vs the $1,000 Denon X3100 used only as a pre-pro. Both were connected to the ATI amps and RBH SX-T2/R speakers. Direct Mode was used.

This wasn’t a blind test or instant switching, but they were both set to the same speaker Channel Level (SPL meter confirmed).

I listened to my usual music that I listen to most of the time.

Of course, this was not the first time comparing separates (analog preamps, pre-pros, integrated amps) to AVR.

I have to say that if the $7,500 AVP-A1 pre-pro sounded better than the $1,000 AVR at all, it was not night-and-day. IOW, I felt both sounded pretty equally great. I don’t think I could tell the difference in a double-blind test.

I would dare say that if I were to go back in time, I would have never bought the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI or $5,500 Denon AVR-5308CI. I would have just bought the Denon X3000 series on sale for $599.

I dare say.

Okay, time to watch some TV series.

X3100?, I thought you had the AVR-3311 or 3312, did you sell them or they failed?
As I said I was skeptical about anything below the Denon 4000 series and Marantz 6000 series. May be I should give the X3400H a chance when price come down enough, just to get XT32 for my LS50s, and retire the 3805 if I hear no difference in pure direct. In that system, even 75 WPC will be plenty.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

X3100?, I thought you had the AVR-3311 or 3312, did you sell them or they failed?
As I said I was skeptical about anything below the Denon 4000 series and Marantz 6000 series. May be I should give the X3400H a chance when price come down enough, just to get XT32 for my LS50s, and retire the 3805 if I hear no difference in pure direct. In that system, even 75 WPC will be plenty.

I have both the 3112 and X3100. They can be very tempting at $550, which I think was the price I paid for each.

I almost bought another new X3300 last year on dealer clearance for $400. So tempting - kind of like how women buy purses and shoes because it would “save them money”.

Truly the only real disadvantage to the X3000 series is that you must place a couple of XInfinity 120mm fans atop the chassis for $20.

I think there is a fine reason why Floyd Toole focused almost all of his research on speakers and room acoustics, instead of worrying one hair about pre-pros and AVR - because it made little difference either way with AVR vs Separates (especially when amps are equal). As we’ve mentioned, AVR/Separates already have unequivocally ruler flat FR, whereas speakers/rooms vary significantly.

 

[RichB]

I'd also like to point out that RichB's comparo with the Yamaha avr was using the avr as a power amp, set to +8 with the volume dial, especially with the comments about protective circuits kicking in....

While that is true, the listening tests were done with voltage measured at the speaker at 2.7 volts. The preamp stage should not have been stressed at all with an expected gain of >20 dB (what's that < .03 volts from the preamp outs?)

Still, who knows what Yamaha did. I am done with this comparison, but in the future I will uses the fully balanced Oppo HA-1 to volume match when necessary.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

While that is true, the listening tests were done with voltage measured at the speaker at 2.7 volts. The preamp stage should not have been stressed at all with an expected gain of >20 dB (what's that < .03 volts from the preamp outs?)

Still, who knows what Yamaha did. I am done with this comparison, but in the future I will uses the fully balanced Oppo HA-1 to volume match when necessary.

- Rich

Now I remember, at the time I thought 2.7 V rms would be too high for the A820 to stay above water during peaks of 15-20 dB.

 

[PENG]

I can say that the comparing the Yamaha RX-A820 100WPC to the ATI AT522NC (level matched) was easily identifiable in SBT's. The RX-A820 was also adding another pre-amplification so there are more variables and my speakers are not the same.

- Rich

If you have time to spare, it would be great to plot some graphs with REW to compare the A820 and AT522NC FR and THD. Volume match is a must, but easy with REW. If the difference is so obvious, then even in SBT, the two curves would not overlap (not even with 1/24 smoothing) almost perfectly like mine.

I know you heard what you heard, but I am very curious to see the difference in black and white. You can do it at different voltage level just to see if the voltage is, say, halved (i.e.1.35 Vrms), whether the difference would shrink accordingly. If it does, then it is just a case of the A820 amps being too weak for your experiment. If not, then it is likely not just power related.

 

[RichB]

If you have time to spare, it would be great to plot some graphs with REW to compare the A820 and AT522NC FR and THD. Volume match is a must, but easy with REW. If the difference is so obvious, then even in SBT, the two curves would not overlap (not even with 1/24 smoothing) almost perfectly like mine.

I know you heard what you heard, but I am very curious to see the difference in black and white. You can do it at different voltage level just to see if the voltage is, say, halved (i.e.1.35 Vrms), whether the difference would shrink accordingly. If it does, then it is just a case of the A820 amps being too weak for your experiment. If not, then it is likely not just power related.

I can't with the A820. It's sold. I don't think it will be productive because whatever changes in the soundstage involves stereo listing and not sine-waves. Ig they look different, that's great but if not, then real content is required.

I experienced this with Dirac curtains set <30 Hz. Measuring single-channel sweeps did not expose whatever was happening that changes the sound stage. The element of time is removed.

I dream of the day when music can be played and the voltage measure on the amp inputs and outputs and compared. That would show non-linearity distortion as well as good old THD.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

it would be great to plot some graphs with REW to compare the A820 and AT522NC FR and THD. ..If the difference is so obvious, then even in SBT, the two curves would not overlap (not even with 1/24 smoothing) almost perfectly like mine.

I know you heard what you heard, but I am very curious to see the difference in black and white.

And we’ll see another infamous audiophile response to that scientific and engineering thinking - that what they hear isn’t black and white and can’t be proven with Frequency Responses, THD, or any other measurements.

 

[PENG]

I can't with the A820. It's sold. I don't think it will be productive because whatever changes in the soundstage involves stereo listing and not sine-waves. Ig they look different, that's great but if not, then real content is required.

I don't think so. Music waveform can be represented by an infinite series of sine waves. The REW measurement sweep is full bandwidth. Logically speaking, imo the sweep is better than real content in the sense that if real contents are used, then we have to debate the "what", right? I have no doubt if the REW measurement sweeps show the DUTs have virtually identical looking curves, and the THDs are low enough, then few people would pass even SBTs. Regarding non linear distortions, there is no evidence of that being a issue based on bench tested results and articles I have seen and read. Linear amplifiers amplifier the signal linearly regardless of the waveform, and linearity can be, and have been measured, to show distortions do exist, but typically too low for humans to worry about.

I experienced this with Dirac curtains set <30 Hz. Measuring single-channel sweeps did not expose whatever was happening that changes the sound stage. The element of time is removed.

I don't know much about Dirac, yet.. I was gong to download it for the free trial but got busy in my DIY projects. Time permitting, I will definitely try it out on one of my 2 channel systems, then we can compare notes.

I dream of the day when music can be played and the voltage measure on the amp inputs and outputs and compared. That would show non-linearity distortion as well as good old THD.

I hope to see that day too. There isn't much hope though. I believe there are at least two good reasons that it won't happen, the same reasons why there won't be any break through in marketable amps that are truly 100% transparent and can be seen to be so.

1) Most people, probably >90% of the world population who enjoy music, already think all of us audioholics are crazy, overthinking, and unnecessarily imaginative of hearing differences, let alone audiophiles and golden ears. Just ask the wives, most of them will tell the truth.

2) Because of tiny demand, professors, scientists, engineers have better things to do than to try and perfect amplifiers that are believed to be perfect enough that only golden ears can tell the difference under some perfect conditions. Besides, how many highly respected and recognized amplifier designers hold a higher degree and spent a good part of their life in R&D trying to perfect audio devices, specifically amps? Probably none, or less than a handful, and they probably have better things to do than to try and improve things that are way passed the point of diminishing return when the demand happens to be negligibly low.

There is a good reason why it seems all those PhDs are more interested in room acoustics and psychoacoustics!

Practically speaking, if you consider the fact that popular music recording and mastering typically involve so many different electronic components already in the process (including all sorts of mics, synthesizers, long cable runs etc), so why bother so much if the home listeners have so little control of what they hear in the end? As ADTG seems to be suggesting, just get a $599 (past year model with deep discounts) AVR and enjoy the music. I am not quite there yet, but have thought about it already, bad influence from him.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As ADTG seems to be suggesting, just get a $599 (past year model with deep discounts) AVR and enjoy the music.

It seems sacrilege to say it, but I really think the X3000 series sound just as good as the AVP-A1HDCI when comparing them this weekend (when using the same ATI amp, 26'L x 22'W x 14'H room, 18' listening distance, 4-ohms speakers).

I hereby nominate both the Denon X3000 series (on sale for $599 brand new) and the Monolith 7x200 watts amp B-stock (5YR ATI warranty) for Products of the Year, Every Year.

For guys who actually really don't want any kind of EQ (like the amazing Audyssey Dynamic EQ), I nominate the Denon DN-700AVP Pre-pro ($799 brand new everyday price) and the Monolith 7x200 amp Separates of the Year, Every year.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I'd like to add the X4400H as well. You get a MM phono card with it.

 

[RichB]

I don't think so. Music waveform can be represented by an infinite series of sine waves. The REW measurement sweep is full bandwidth. Logically speaking, imo the sweep is better than real content in the sense that if real contents are used, then we have to debate the "what", right? I have no doubt if the REW measurement sweeps show the DUTs have virtually identical looking curves, and the THDs are low enough, then few people would pass even SBTs. Regarding non linear distortions, there is no evidence of that being a issue based on bench tested results and articles I have seen and read. Linear amplifiers amplifier the signal linearly regardless of the waveform, and linearity can be, and have been measured, to show distortions do exist, but typically too low for humans to worry about.

Check out any review on Stereophile, I am not sure what there parameters for their simulated speaker, but almost all show variation; many show +/-.2 dB. That would not be a problem except that is probably not the worst case.

There are also amplifiers that should significant degradation with 2 tones. Is it worse with real music. Most likely, it's not going to be better.

Then there are real-world problem like power. {Perhaps it does not matter. Here is a oscilloscope measurement taken at my HT.

Some AVRs and amps have current limiting and other protection circuitry in the output path. Anything that limits current results in non-linearity.

Has anyone seen these measurements on a AVR?


This is an oscilloscope measurement of the power at my main system. It’s not perfect. This is the stuff found in the wild.

I
I hope to see that day too. There isn't much hope though. I believe there are at least two good reasons that it won't happen, the same reasons why there won't be any break through in marketable amps that are truly 100% transparent and can be seen to be so.

1) Most people, probably >90% of the world population who enjoy music, already think all of us audioholics are crazy, overthinking, and unnecessarily imaginative of hearing differences, let alone audiophiles and golden ears. Just ask the wives, most of them will tell the truth.

2) Because of tiny demand, professors, scientists, engineers have better things to do than to try and perfect amplifiers that are believed to be perfect enough that only golden ears can tell the difference under some perfect conditions. Besides, how many highly respected and recognized amplifier designers hold a higher degree and spent a good part of their life in R&D trying to perfect audio devices, specifically amps? Probably none, or less than a handful, and they probably have better things to do than to try and improve things that are way passed the point of diminishing return when the demand happens to be negligibly low.

There is a good reason why it seems all those PhDs are more interested in room acoustics and psychoacoustics!

Practically speaking, if you consider the fact that popular music recording and mastering typically involve so many different electronic components already in the process (including all sorts of mics, synthesizers, long cable runs etc), so why bother so much if the home listeners have so little control of what they hear in the end? As ADTG seems to be suggesting, just get a $599 (past year model with deep discounts) AVR and enjoy the music. I am not quite there yet, but have thought about it already, bad influence from him.

This may occur, I imaging if Benchmark can provide that its ultra-low distortion produces much better performance in the wild, they will do it.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Check out any review on Stereophile, I am not sure what there parameters for their simulated speaker, but almost all show variation; many show +/-.2 dB. That would not be a problem except that is probably not the worst case.

There are also amplifiers that should significant degradation with 2 tones. Is it worse with real music. Most likely, it's not going to be better.

View attachment 24064

Then there are real-world problem like power. {Perhaps it does not matter. Here is a oscilloscope measurement taken at my HT.

Some AVRs and amps have current limiting and other protection circuitry in the output path. Anything that limits current results in non-linearity.

Has anyone seen these measurements on a AVR?

View attachment 24063



This may occur, I imaging if Benchmark can provide that its ultra-low distortion produces much better performance in the wild, they will do it.

- Rich

I read a lot of Stereophile and Hometheaterhifi (Secrets, they called it..) so I am aware of the stuff you are referring to. The thing is, any sort of distortions they showed were just way too low compared to those of speakers, so not the bottleneck at all, not even close. As for real world power, sure, that's why I always emphasized it it not good enough to say "within their designed....", but "well within/or well below"............... Example, for your A820, I wouldn't use it to compare with any real separate amps unless it is used in outputs averaging less 0.5 W or less. Your 2.7 V experiment could amount to 2W or higher, considering the impedance of the M20s, that was only point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'd like to add the X4400H as well. You get a MM phono card with it.

Absolutely. The X4000 series (on sale regularly for $799 brand) should definitely be product of the year as well.

 

[RichB]

I read a lot of Stereophile and Hometheaterhifi (Secrets, they called it..) so I am aware of the stuff you are referring to. The thing is, any sort of distortions they showed were just way too low compared to those of speakers, so not the bottleneck at all, not even close. As for real world power, sure, that's why I always emphasized it it not good enough to say "within their designed....", but "well within/or well below"............... Example, for your A820, I wouldn't use it to compare with any real separate amps unless it is used in outputs averaging less 0.5 W or less. Your 2.7 V experiment could amount to 2W or higher, considering the impedance of the M20s, that was only point.

To the degree that speakers are represented by resistive loads (most AVR amp testing) and simulated load (Stereophile testing), your conclusions are represent the known universe. Anyone who believes this should ditch their separate amps. Not even ADTG seems willing to do that. All talk no action

How can a maximum sine-wav source measuring 2.7 volts into a load that is a minimum of 3.8 ohms ever exceed 2 watts?

In terms of pre-amplification, the 7.1 analog outs from the Oppo do sound different than allowing the XMC-1 to do the decoding. There are times I prefer one to the other but they sound different. Have you tried this at home?

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To the degree that speakers are represented by resistive loads (most AVR amp testing) and simulated load (Stereophile testing), your conclusions are represent the known universe. Anyone who believes this should ditch their separate amps. Not even ADTG seems willing to do that. All talk no action

Well, that's because I already own the Pre-pro. It wouldn't make any sense to change it now. Hello!

But for guys who are new to this hobby, I hope my experience will save some of them a lot of time, money, and pain, probably more so than any Xanax and/or Prozac.

First, spending $599 (on sale regularly) up front is a lot less painful to begin with.

Second (salient reason), the Denon X3000 series (or X4000 for $799) sounds just as good as the $7,500 Pre-pro or any other Pre-pro I have ever heard (at least when the Denon AVR is used as a pre-pro).

Third, the warranty is 3YR. All of my Denon (X3100, 3312, and other 3000-series I've given to my family) have lasted a lot longer than 3YR. Any Pre-pro could possibly malfunction any given year regardless of cost. And if it does malfunction some years later, it is a lot less painful to replace it with another $599 X3000 series than if your original cost were $4,000-$8,000!

 

[RichB]

Well, that's because I already own the Pre-pro. It wouldn't make any sense to change it now. Hello!

But for guys who are new to this hobby, I hope my experience will save some of them a lot of time, money, and pain, probably more so than any Xanax and/or Prozac.

People have a lot to say, but it is what they do that counts.

Amps can be sold. Where is that last measure of devotion?

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

People have a lot to say, but it is what they do that counts.

Amps can be sold. Where is that last measure of devotion?

- Rich

People do say a lot of things.

My "devotion" is getting awesome sound quality. It's not selling or buying gears!

Since my comparisons (not just this last weekend, but many times before) have shown that there is no significantly difference, there is no reason to change my gears or sell my gears.

I mean it's not like I'm hurting financially and need to sell my electronics to make a few bucks!

My philosophy is to make change if there is improvement to be made.

There is no rationale for making changes just for the sake of making changes.

If you already own separates, keep the separates unless changing to AVR improves the sound. One example would be preferring Audyssey Dynamic EQ over some other surround modes on the previous electronics.

If you own AVR, keep the AVR unless changing to separates improves the sound.

 

[RichB]

People do say a lot of things.
My "devotion" is getting awesome sound quality. It's not selling or buying gears!

AUTHORIZED DEALER . RBH . ATI . DENON . MARANTZ . MONITOR AUDIO . PHASE TECHNOLOGY

- Rich

 

[Verdinut]

True.

So you don't think they could get someone to make them a Pre-pro?

I'm thinking that if they could somehow manage that, they could sell people the entire Monolith Audio System - Pre-pro, Amp, Speakers, Subwoofers, and all the wires/cables and accessories.

For example, could they somehow get Denon to make them an equivalent of the $800 DN-700AVP Pre-pro for home theater use?

It's really basic, but it has XLR connectors, HDMI, DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD.

Just remove that rack-mount kit, the "DENON" name and the silly "AV Receiver" label and put the "Monolith" name on there.


I think for guys who want a more simple design (no Audyssey, no EQ, no DSP),this $800 Pre-pro is a good option.

http://denonpro.com/products/view3/dn-700avp

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1367639-REG/denon_dn_700avp_a_v_surround_pre_amplifier_120v_230v.html

Actually, anything is possible for a Monolith pre-pro and how about a Monolith universal Blu-ray player to replace the now discontinued OPPO?

To answer one of your other mentioned questions, I would rather get a Denon AVR to use as a pre-pro. What would you think of one of those Denon DN-700 AVP though, and combine it with the miniDSP with Dirac Live as an alternate option?

For the 2 channel power amp, I would use one or several of the QSC DCA Series amps which are, IMO, as acoustically transparent as the expensive McIntosh, Krell, Parasound etc. The DCA 1222s which I am using now (200w @8 ohms -325w @4 ohms) retail for over US$900 and the DCA 1622 (300w @8 ohms -500w @4 ohms) retail for over $1100, but a few stores in Calif. which distribute cinema equipment sell them at 20% discount prices. I believe.