The Right To Bear Arms

[Methost]

I'm a gun owner. I own about 10. My 14 year old son owns 3 and my 9 year old daughter own a .22.

Naturally I am against most gun control.

Having said that, where does one draw the line? While I don't see the need to own a fully automatic AR15, if the reason behind owning one is protection from forces within, and these forces have these weapons, then it only stands to reason that one would be needed to protect. I think so many NRA members take such a hard stance that all guns should be legal because they believe (rightly) that once we give a little, the flood gates will open. The government has done it time and time again.

/shrug But it's for smarter people then me to figure out I guess. As I said, I don't fear my government or feel the need to own an M-16. But I'm not giving up my 12-gauge pump.

 

[Methost]

although it also helps that we have an extra "loose firearm" lying around to "give" to the robber just in case he didn't bring any.

ROFL ... Just in case

 

[jaxvon]

Melt all guns. Ever notice some other countries police dont carry them? I know melting all guns wont happen but i always thought that guns arent much good without bullets. Why not regulate ammo more?

Ever notice that other countries don't have the "Old West" history or mentality? Ever notice that pop culture there doesn't endorse gun use to kill people?
Every notice there's barely any hunting in those countries anyway (Europe)?

 

[mike c]

Being from Canada, we have a very different view of firearms, unfortunately it's mostly driven from the view of political correctness...

I do favor strict laws regarding who can obtain firearms but the most important issue, IMHO, is the lack of laws setting out severe minimum penalties for the illegal use of firearms. The old BS about someone doing an armed robbery and getting 3 - 4 years drives me nuts! There should be no concurrent sentence where firearms are involved in the comission of a crime. There should be a minimum sentence of 5 - 7 years, with no reduction possible for the firearms offense before the robbery sentence starts...this would, I hope, provide some sort of deterrance...

I can't support a ban on firearms for the simple reason that the "bad guys" will always find a way to obtain firearms if they so choose.

Unfortunately, our political leaders here in Canada like to follow the school of "knee jerk reaction" when it comes to firearms legislation rather than good old common sense!

For the record, I have been a firearms owner for over 20 years. I was a competitive shooter for many years and am looking to get back into the sport.

My current collection includes: Beretta 92FS ( Italian made ), Ruger MK II target pistol, S & W 686, Colt Match HBAR rifle and my pride and joy, a Vostoc free pistol.

hear hear! i would like to note though that i wish any crime commited with the use of a deadly weapon be given harsher penalties (something in the ballpark of life imprisonment or death)

harsh you say? well criminals should already be presumed to have commited "attempted/frustrated murder" simply because they brought a gun. its not called a deadly weapon for nothing.


we have the beretta too! 2 of them in blue finish and 1 in the "aluminum color" finish (called inox i think)

you cant really compare canada to other countries because there's something in your water that prevents these heinous crimes

 

[RJB]

Mike C, thanks for your reply...but I must unfortunately add that we don't really have anything special in the water ( although I wish we did )

We have more than our fair share of brutal gun play and many of those firearms are either stolen from legal owners who don't have proper storage ( I have a LARGE safe ) or they are smuggled into Canada from the US by criminal elements...

Oh, a note to Methost... Your first posted noted "While I don't see the need to own a fully automatic AR15"

I just though I would point out that the AR15 is the civilian version of the original military M16. The AR15 is manufactured as a semi-automatic only. It can only be made fully automatic through post manufacture modifications...

This is just one of my pet peeves about the media here in Canada, they never seem to be able to make the distinction between what is manufactured as full auto versus what can be modified to be full auto. The truth is that virtually any semi auto firearm can be converted to full auto and that would include my semi auto pistols...

 

[Tsunamii]

The sad part is that the Framers clearly addresed this issue.
quotes of note

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.)

"The great object is that every man be armed . . . Everyone who is able may have a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution.)

"The advantage of being armed . . . the Americans possess over the people of all other nations . . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several Kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in his Federalist Paper No. 46.)

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." (Second Amendment to the Constitution.)

 

[gene]

No one goes around much proposing legislation to restrict free speech.

Are you kiddin? Haven't you been keeping track of the FCC lately?

 

[racquetman]

http://www.barefootsworld.net/switzrld.html

 

[claudermilk]

Good thread. Very interesting excerpts from Tsunamii.

I definitely fall on the side of allowing an armed population, seeing as that is part of our Constitution and I tend to think the cliche "an armed society is a polite society" has at least some merit. I suspect most is not nearly all guns used by criminals are illegal anyway, so putting more bans just makes life easier on them once they get their hands on one. If the likelyhood of facing an armed victim prepared to defend themself is higher, the criminal will probably think twice.

But as Tsunamii's excerpt points out, there needs to be education in the proper use and respect for guns.

 

[Methost]

Oh, a note to Methost... Your first posted noted "While I don't see the need to own a fully automatic AR15"

I just though I would point out that the AR15 is the civilian version of the original military M16. The AR15 is manufactured as a semi-automatic only. It can only be made fully automatic through post manufacture modifications...

Oh I know. I have seen and fired an AR15 in full Auto. But your right that there is no "legal" AR15 full Auto.

 

[algernon]

Why not regulate ammo more?

Ammo is easily made in one's garage, many gun enthusiasts do so to save money or as part of the hobby.

 

[Takeereasy]

Don't let us Canucks fool you. There are over 30 million registered guns in Canada, more than a 1 gun per person number. Granted something like 80% of them are rifles or shotguns . We are a hunting nation and I see nothing wrong with that. Violent gun crimes are on the rise up here too though. I'll tell you my pet peeve about guns though. It lies in the fact that politicians disguise the increased violence behind statistics that claim less deaths from gun violence. It isn't that the criminals aren't trying harder to kill you, it's the fact that medicine and access to speedy treatment has evolved at a pace slightly ahead of violent shootings. I'm not a gun owner, and to be honest I do think that many in the US are "Gun Nuts", my own family in Texas and California included, but I do think that in a free society the residents should be allowed to purchase firearms for hunting or home defence if they so choose. I also think that if a person uses any weapon, especially a gun to commit a crime it should be 12 years minimum sentence, and that is if no one gets hurt. I despise criminals, especially violent ones.

 

[shokhead]

Then gunpoder or whatever,guns are out of control and in the hands of out of control people.

 

[mustang_steve]

Ammo is easily made in one's garage, many gun enthusiasts do so to save money or as part of the hobby.

True, but you can tax the actual bullet to pull that off (the projectile portion of the round).


I just believe that we need ahrsher penalties for armed crimes.

IMO any armed robbery should be a minimum 10 years in prison, no parole, no early release, no concurrent sentencing.

I also believe that any non-aggravated murder should be life or death sentence, again no parole, early release, blah blah blah. On the side of attempted, it should still be a life sentence...IMO sentencing should be based on intent, not outcome...and anyone willing to open fire on someone for profit, is the lowest form of human being.

Pretty much the problem is people are not treating guns like the tool they are, and instead are carrying them around like a zippo.

I also believe that any wepons related violations at all should carry harsh sentences. Possession of a stolen weapon....3 years. Carry without a permit....3 years. both combined....10 years.

 

[Mort Corey]

True, but you can tax the actual bullet to pull that off (the projectile portion of the round).

Unless one casts their own from innocent sources, such as used wheel balance weights

Taxing anything is just another form of restriction.

Mort

 

[shokhead]

Unless one casts their own from innocent sources, such as used wheel balance weights

Taxing anything is just another form of restriction.

Mort

Thats what we want,restriction.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

On the other hand, I do think everyone should be allowed to carry a sword like the Samurai of old times.

I actually saw someone last year walking down Main st. with a samurai sword tucked into his belt. It was a cheap Highlander stainless steel knockoff, but I didn't feel the need at the time to berate his choice of cutlery. Probably because samurai swords and bazookas are nature's way of saying "Do not provoke".

Back on the topic at hand.....

Hunting rifles and shotguns aren't really the subject here. Yes many a 12gauge has been used to rob the C-Store, but the "restriction" experts never seem to care or remember about them. They are soley focused on handguns and automatic weapons. You can buy any rifle/shotgun you want at your local Wal*Mart/K*Mart/****'s/Department store with no waiting.

My grandfather, back in the day, purchased at fully automatic Thompson & Co. .45 (The "Tommy Gun") rifle at a drug store for $30. With no waiting, or positive ID required. My how times change!

My plan for reduced crime.....

1. handgun permit required (don't want 3x violent offenders to have them, do we?). I'll use New York styate rules since I'm familiar.... but here's the change..

2. No concealed weapons. Any handgun you want to carry must be worn in plain sight. This should cut-down on muggings by about 100% or so.....

 

[Tomorrow]

Oh I know. I have seen and fired an AR15 in full Auto. But your right that there is no "legal" AR15 full Auto.

That is not true. Get a Class 2 license and it's all yours if you have the money. Here in Oregon, I have friends with several, legal, full-auto AR15s. They come with a BTF tax stamp that is a bit pricy, and the guns themselves are also pretty expensive.

And by the way, Oregon is a "Right To Carry" state and has a much lower crime rate than my birth state of California (with its Draconian gun laws). People like Sheep are ignoring two major issues. 1. It's proven time and again that more anti-gun laws = higher crime rate. (Gun ownership does deter crime.), and 2. The framers of our Constitution realized that we as a people could not be free of oppressive governance without arms ownership by the 'people'. Freedom! Without arms, Sheep, you and I would still be tithing to the Queen.

 

[chicagomd]

This is always an interesting topic of conversation.

Like way to many things in this country right now, there is to much "us vs. them" mentality. For those of you interested in looking at the other side of things:

http://www.csgv.org/docUploads/Gun Violence Fact Sheet.pdf

Of note:
-"A gun kept in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal
assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to commit or attempt suicide, than to be used in self-defense."

-"Gun violence is a public health issue that places an enormous financial burden on hospitals and taxpayers. In 1990, researchers estimated that the costs of direct medical spending and lost productivity in the United States totaled $20.4 billion"

-"Toy guns and teddy bears are more regulated than American-made handguns."

The last point is really the one that really gets me. Any mention of regulation and the NRA start screaming about "taking our weapons away...cold dead hands...etc.". Why does the gun industry get a pass? The asnwer is, of course, politics. They give the right people the right amount of money. I sure feel safe.

And for all you second ammendment buffs (also from the link above):
U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174: Possession of a firearm is not protected by the Second Amendment unless it has “some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." I am not sure membership in the NRA, a clearly private, political organization, qualifies.

U.S. v. Toner, 728 F.2d 115,43
128 (2d Cir. 1984) Gun possession
is “clearly not a fundamental right."

U.S. v. Swinton, 521 F.2d 1255, 1259, cert. denied, 424 U.S. 918 (1976), There is “no absolute constitutional right to possess a firearm."

There is no question that guns are a part of our national heritage. So is jazz, the blues, the automobile industry, slavery, and atomic weaponry.

And for those of you who think there is no legislation that limits the first amendment, the comment above about the FCC is very valid. As is the current issue of Miller in the Valerie Plame affair, limitations placed on the Freedom of Information Act in respect to national security, and hate speech.

There is a huge difference between eliminating firearms from the American public, which no reasonable person is advocating, and putting very reasonable regulations and limitations on an industry that has been given a pass becuase they have an amazing propaganda and political machine.

 

[RJB]

Well said chicagomd...


Rjbudz, the UK is basically a firearms free zone these days, even the police only carry firearms in special situations. Crime is crime and they have plenty to go around but they do have a much lower per capita rate of firearms violence than the US, or Canada for that matter...

Tithing the Queen may not have been such a bad idea afterall...

Up here I could do without the fact that she is still on some of our currency but hey, we did get our independance peacefully...it just took, in typical Canadian fashion, 91 years longer than it did for you...

Long live democracy in North America!