The never ending amp journey

fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks Adam, yea that hum would drive me insane and I always like to listen to things a little on the loud end so a lack of power would also bug me. As far as weight, I could always use the exercise. I'm actually having an entertainment center built for me, should look nice. If nothing else and I get too many nick nacks for it to hold I'll slide a component rack in next to it. That makes me feel better though about getting an amp.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Yikes what have I done? I didn't mean for this to turn into Adam's life story! :eek:

Back on Topic, these amps are really cool if you don't mind putting things together:

NC400

:D
Call me crazy I feel as though I'm having deja vu. I'm sure I looked at these once before, and I'm pretty sure you had recommended them :D. I could probably do it, but I'm not sure I feel confident to try it on my own without someone to help me and make sure I don't mess something up.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I will be listening to a an even mix of stereo music and home theatre and I think that the phil 3s will allow me to get excellent range without immediately feeling the need for a sub or multiple subs,
A few things i'll note for ya...

- HT has demands down to 13hz and even lower, at > 110 db from the LFE channel and > 100db from the main channels, at the listening position. At reference, it's 115db and 105db respectively.
- Distance losses are pretty notable. 12 foot distance will have a distance loss of > 8db
- Just about all speakers start to compress the signal when you run more than 100w through them. That is 20db of gain. At that point, especially between 1khz and 3khz, what you hear tends to be power compression.
- For truly impressive, tight bass with +/- 3db or better tolerance between 20hz and 120hz, you really do want multiple subs. Room modes are a VERY real thing and no stereo pair can magically make them go poof.
- The Philharmonics are 85 and 87 db sensitive respectively. For most living rooms, a fine choice. But you can do the math. Typically you should expect much more than 95-97db from them. Even if you get it, it won't necessarily be "effortless".
- Have you evaluated room acoustics at all? Are you willing to spend 1K on some broadband bass traps and diffusion panels?

I'm NOT trying to discourage you away from the Philharmonics. I wouldn't be surprised if I was the one that suggested them to you in the first place.

My only point is, any speaker that tries to dig below 30hz, is first and foremost a music speaker, not a dual-purpose speaker. You can choose to dual-purpose it, and that's fine, but at that point it's nonsense to be looking at the 400W amps that i'm suggesting to you. Why? Because the speaker itself has its limitations. Irvrobinson earlier mentioned voice coils heating up. That's the reality. Speakers don't perform their best with a bunch of current running through them. Speakers perform their best with a little bit of current running through them. But if you're using them in a manner which demands a lot of current run through them, then you're not using them optimally.

I know at some point I'll want more power, and it will probably be much sooner than later.
Get an AVR with preouts, and add a stereo amp just to make yourself feel better. It should be possible in under 1K.

The reason I'm compelled to spend more money is because of hum and reliability, the presence of any hum or the lack of reliability would be completely unacceptable.
There's no magic solution to hum. We seem to see time and time again that the number one issue with hum, is the earthing in their home. Now self-earthing chassis' and balanced connections are nice, but they're not foolproof. There can always be a source of hum in the system.

For example, my source of hum in my system, comes, I believe, from the power cable on the television, connected via HDMI of all things, onto the receiver. Now I can't hear the hum unless i'm really close, but it's very real. I can't fathom why HDMI would create a ground loop, but it does somehow. The reality is that electronics are complex and a headache if you get obsessive compulsive, which I can uh... be :D .

The only way to really beat hum, is to aggressively attack it at the source - the house.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I could probably do it, but I'm not sure I feel confident to try it on my own without someone to help me and make sure I don't mess something up.

YOOH CAN DO IT!

TLS Guy will walk you through it since he is our local master of things.

Throw it in these chassis



Those Philharmonics deserve these Ncore modules :D
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I've definitely seen either you or someone else talk about the digging deep for HT use, and I'm not saying that they would be perfect for both, buttttt they will be most excellent for music and none too shabby for HT (subs added of course) all I was saying is that they're a good place to start until I get on here and start pestering all of you for sub ideas, center ideas and so on :D

What is this big shiny thing? Do you know what I'd need to do something like this (tools, other pieces besides the modules)?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
What is this big shiny thing? Do you know what I'd need to do something like this (tools, other pieces besides the modules)?
It's a mono amp chassis in my favorite amp color :D

...You'll need a power supply (which hypex offers or you can build your own which would probably be too convoluted) or two (if you're going the mono amps route), soldering iron, screwdriver, drill, chassis, connectors (IE XLR) and a few other things... just try reading this.. it's for the older UCD modules but mostly the same idea.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
We seem to see time and time again that the number one issue with hum, is the earthing in their home.
Agreed - but to be clear, the hum that I was speaking of is in the amps themselves...it's not a grounding issue. If they were in an equipment closet, I'd never notice it. I didn't mention it as a personal gripe, but rather something to think about when buying amps.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Agreed - but to be clear, the hum that I was speaking of is in the amps themselves...it's not a grounding issue. If they were in an equipment closet, I'd never notice it. I didn't mention it as a personal gripe, but rather something to think about when buying amps.
Oh... Toroid and Fan hum??

The Hypex-designed power supply is an SMPS :cool: - no 1970s toroidal transformers - and they put out such little heat that you don't even need heatsinks (note... do use heatsinks) never mind cooling fans.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Btw, are those NC400 modules available in a pre-made amp, yet?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Toroid, yep. No fans in my amps.
Gotcha. Yeah I can see how that might be annoying.

I can't recall ever hearing any toroid hum in my SR6003. I've once or twice hear toroid hum on the J2500 powering my subwoofer (annoying stuff... I run straight to the outlet and unplug it) Never heard toroid hum on my J2500 powering my EMPs.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Btw, are those NC400 modules available in a pre-made amp, yet?
The NC400 (400w @ 4 ohm, ~200w @ 8 ohms) are DIY only.

The OEM module that might be available in a pre-made amp, is the NC1200 (~1200w @ 2 ohm, ~600w @ 4 ohm, ~300w @ 8 ohm) I don't know if any brand is offering this. Maybe Channel Islands Audio and Grimm Audio plan to, though. Get in touch with them if you're interested.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't trust denon's pre-outs to be all that great. I would get a Marantz SR6006

MARANTZ SR6006 Home theater receiver 3D-ready HDMI Air Play | Accessories4less

The Marantz SR6004 ($1200) measured with 7V preouts. The Denon 5308 ($5500), only has 3.8V preouts. I can't imagine the 3310 having great preouts. The 431x should, though, based on my guess-logic.
I've never had any issues with Denon pre-outs. Never even heard there was an issue. Certainly have not hurt the measurements of the Denon AVR or AVP.

What implications does this 3.8V pre-outs have?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Something to think about, I like the idea of separates, balanced outputs, the option to swap out the processor when new features arise, and mix and match amps as my needs (or wants is probably a better word) dictate. However, I see where you're coming from and why you think I should just get the denon. Nothing is set in stone as of yet and I'm still in the research and audition phase of the whole ordeal :D So who's knows where I'll end up. I could end up with a HTIB :eek:
Balanced vs unbalanced - 1st, we are talking single-balanced, not fully balanced. Really no advantages here, except for the better connectors.

Swapping out processors - you can just easily swap out AVRs, and it will be much cheaper.

Mix & match amps - you can do the same with AVRs.

AVRs measure the same as pre-pros (THD, FR, SNR, Crosstalk are all inaudible).

$600 vs $1300 & the AVR-990 can do everything the AV7005 can do, except for balanced connectors on AV7005. If your external amp breaks, you are screwed with the AV7005. With the AVR990, you still got the 120wpc x 7ch internal amp as "backup".:D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I've never had any issues with Denon pre-outs. Never even heard there was an issue. Certainly have not hurt the measurements of the Denon AVR or AVP.

What implications does this 3.8V pre-outs have?
3.8V pre outs are fine, but not really for a $5500 receiver. The AVP, for reference, has 15V Preouts. The $1200 marantz receiver has 7V preouts which is also great, and the AV8003 processors have around ~13-14V according to TLS Guy who measured his.

I just hope the 3310 doesn't have wimpy 1V or 1.5V preouts, which aren't unheard of in budget type receivers. Some receivers have been known to have even lower than 1V. This is where these brands cut costs. A receiver or processor really should have a ton of preout headroom. If the preouts clip, then having the best amp in the world won't matter.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Would you recommend that the OP also look at AB international? I am going to check out the Precedent 900A on Tuesday and if it works like advertised I will bring it home.

It's old school for sure. I believe kind of like the Millennium Falcon: She don't look like much but she has it where it counts.

Fortunately for me I rack my amps so the whole not have an 'aesthetic statement' saves me a pile of cash.
Not a good picture, but a total of 2050 watts for under $600.oo. I don't think that's a bad investment.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
OSHA doesn't have anything to do with consumer electronics safety certification.
Yes, they do. OSHA set the minimum standards, and certify the private labs (UL, etc.) as NRTL's. Please see the link I posted. Some choice quotes, with emphasis added:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ said:
Welcome to the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program, which is a part of OSHA's Directorate of Technical Support and Emergency Management. The Program recognizes private sector organizations as NRTLs, and recognition signifies that an organization has met the necessary qualifications[/u] specified in the regulations for the Program. The NRTL determines that specific equipment and materials ("products") meet consensus-based standards of safety to provide the assurance, required by OSHA, that these products are safe for use in the U.S. workplace. ***
It costs a pretty penny to get something like UL certification on your product. And alot of smaller companies just don't bother with it.
If they're willing to skimp on something as basic as safety certification, it makes me where else they're cheaping out.

carrying a UL sticker doesnt mean that a particular product will never fail or cause a safety hazard either.
Of course not. But many homeowner's and renter's insurance policies have clauses making failure of a non-certified product grounds to deny a claim. That should be sufficient grounds for any reasonable person to demand that electronic equipment one is going to bring into her/his home have the necessary safety certifications.

Amps without such certification should carry large warning stickers. I'm surprised they don't. I know that someone came to me with a house fire caused by an uncertified amp...that amp company would not longer exist. They'd be sued into bankruptcy.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Hmmm. I was just estimating this myself. My speakers are about 86db/2.83v/1m, and at my ear position I was just measuring 104db peaks with an 92db average level. At 1m from the lower midrange driver I measured 111db peaks at the same listening level. So what do you think, somewhere between 250 and 500 watts on peaks?
Maybe closer to 20-75, depending on how large your room is, where the peaks lie in the spectrum, how many speakers were playing, and whether or not the signal going to them was in phase. Remember that (Klipsch and a few others excepted) sensitivity ratings are taken from anechoic chambers.

I thought my previous 125w/ch amps sounded a little strained.
Unless you heard "don't hurt me" type noises emanating from the amps themselves (it happens - try, for instance, a loud 5-200Hz swept sine on an 82dB/W/m subwoofer powered by a Dayton 240W plate amp) the amps did not in fact sound strained. The loudspeakers did. That is a very non-trivial distinction.

That kind of imprecise language can cause a lot of misconceptions. Amps are just gain blocks. They don't make sound, at least not any desirable sound. (Some do make sound, such as transformer buzz.)

Most folks definitely guess that low bass in music has lower frequencies than it really does. They're usually about 10Hz low. (They guess a 50Hz tone at 40Hz.)
That is true.


I don't trust denon's pre-outs to be all that great. I would get a Marantz SR6006
Don't see an issue there. 3.8V is enough to drive most amps to their full output power. Maybe not a QSC PL380 at its low-gain setting, but basically anything else. Furthermore, the amp's input circuitry cannot take unlimited voltage. Many consumer amps will clip all over an input of 8V. Too much gain on the front end of the amp can be just as bad as too much gain inside the amp.

Even in car audio, where noise is a much bigger problem, 3.8V measured preouts are above the norm. Most are closer to 2V average, 4V peak.

I will be listening to a an even mix of stereo music and home theatre and I think that the phil 3s will allow me to get excellent range without immediately feeling the need for a sub or multiple subs,
Keep in mind that all two-speaker systems suck in the bass. No exceptions. (Dipoles like the Linkwitz Orions or Emerald Physics are better than monopoles, but still not as good as multiple subwoofers.) Double-digit SPL swings in the modal region are the norm.

Let's take the Revel Ultima Salon/2. We can all agree that it's a superb loudspeaker, and one with notably deep bass extension. Well, here's a very smoothed in-room measurement from the listening room of Dr. Fred Kaplan, who writes Slate's "War Stories" column and is also a contributor to Stereophile:

Revels are the red trace. The blue trace is a lesser and probably more expensive loudspeaker.

If high fidelity is the goal, multiple subs are simply not optional. Fortunately, with multiples one gets increased efficiency and output. So each individual sub doesn't need to be SVS Ultra/Velo DD18+ sized. Rather, something like three of SVS's little sealed XXLS12-based subs, EQ'ed by a miniDSP, will be plenty for most people. So, if you care about high-fidelity audio reproduction, take ~$2k out of your electronics budget by getting a decent receiver (I still say the Anthem I mentioned is the best choice, because it has the best room correction system of all the AVR's mentioned, but none of them will be worse than that Marantz preamp you seem to like) and transfer it to your multisub budget.

Those Philharmonics deserve these Ncore modules :D
Except maybe for a prettier or smaller case, I fail to see what Hypex modules will do that the aforementioned Crown XLS Drivecore amp won't. (Drivecore over Peavey IPR because it's less of a light show, and the fan does not run continuously.) Only with DIY Hypexes there will be more time invested, higher initial cost, higher labor cost, lower resale value, and a higher likelihood of something going wrong.

Unless one just wants the experience of building an amp, or has very specific size/form-factor requirements that are not addressed by the commercial market at a reasonable cost, there's no reason to do so.
 
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psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
Fuzz,
Thanks for starting this thread, I have learned a good bit from the responses you've been given.
I hope this doesn't add to your confusion...but......

I think you should forget about an amp and get a receiver with pre outs for an external amp to be added later if needed. Which is easy for me to say, since it's been the theme of the majority of comments already given. I would like to suggest the Integra DTR 70.3, see below. It has plenty of power, is fairly future proof, and should last until you need to upgrade again.

Products

With the new models coming out in the next few months, with some effort, you should be able to get last years model for a good price.

I would also opt for the Phil2's instead of the Philthree's. The thousand dollars in savings can be used for two Rythmik subs.

Good luck.

Something that just came to me is, you could use the $1000 in savings to buy a third Philtwo to use a center channel.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you should forget about an amp and get a receiver with pre outs for an external amp to be added later if needed.

I would also opt for the Phil2's instead of the Phil3's. The thousand dollars in savings can be used for two Rythmik subs.

Something that just came to me is, you could use the $1000 in savings to buy a third Philtwo to use a center channel.
Agreed.

No towers can match the bass output/extension of fine dedicated subs anyway.

Phil2 (2) + FV12 (2) = $3K.:D
 
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