The never ending amp journey

[Adam]

They're g*d d**n amps.

Them's fightin' words.

 

[fuzz092888]

The Philharmonic 2s are 87db sensitive and a 4 ohm load.

Personally, i'd want about 40V capability to hit 100 db @ 10 ft - 400w into 4 ohms.

I would drive them with these amps:

Crown XLS 1500 Power Amp, 1500 Watts at zZounds

and not get caught up in the $4000+ stuff for your first damn amp. Lasting a lifetime is just an excuse to pay 8X as much. Buy this amp, and evaluate first whether you really want to spend any more on amps.

They're god damn amps.

I don't disagree at all, and I'm not sure if there was a misunderstanding but no amp I am looking at is $4000. The crown looks good, but I'd need at least two of them, putting me right back somewhere in the vicinity of the price I was looking to spend anyways. Good suggestion though, another to add to the list.

 

[DS-21]

and not get caught up in the $4000+ stuff for your first damn amp. Lasting a lifetime is just an excuse to pay 8X as much.

"Last a lifetime" is another one of those false economy things.

Chances are that when it breaks, the parts that end up breaking will be long out of production.

I do agree that the class D Crowns would be an objectively superior option to anything else discussed on this thread so far, though. Proper OSHA safety certification (I still can't believe people will buy big power generators that are not properly certified), more power, better speaker connectors (Speakons), higher efficiency, better warranty with local servicing in any decent-sized city, and lower cost new than many of the other options used.

 

[fuzz092888]

Now now, guys I never said I wanted it to last a "lifetime"

All I said was that I wanted it to last a good long time, meaning at least 5 years. I would like to replace whatever I get eventually, but need it to last long enough for me to have the means to do so, thats all.

However, I still like the crown suggestion, so thanks again for that.

 

[Haoleb]

"Last a lifetime" is another one of those false economy things.

Chances are that when it breaks, the parts that end up breaking will be long out of production.

I do agree that the class D Crowns would be an objectively superior option to anything else discussed on this thread so far, though. Proper OSHA safety certification (I still can't believe people will buy big power generators that are not properly certified), more power, better speaker connectors (Speakons), higher efficiency, better warranty with local servicing in any decent-sized city, and lower cost new than many of the other options used.

Regarding your certification....

OSHA doesn't have anything to do with consumer electronics safety certification. No government agency does, All the testing labs are independent entities. It costs a pretty penny to get something like UL certification on your product. And alot of smaller companies just don't bother with it. carrying a UL sticker doesnt mean that a particular product will never fail or cause a safety hazard either. The engineer of the product itself is the best one to design a safe product.

I build industrial control panels under the UL 508A spec and to be honest I have lost alot of respect for such certification because alot of it is just paying the dues and you get to throw their sticker on your product. The inspector comes by a couple times a year. has a look around and then collects the check. I certainly understand your position on the matter. I would feel better buying a toaster that carries a testing labs certification on it but at the same time that doesn't always guarantee its better than one that does not. UL makes up their own standard... often times it seems by throwing darts at ideas from suzie secretary. And some of their requirements just make no sense.

 

[GranteedEV]

The crown looks good, but I'd need at least two of them

.....wh...y...??

 

[Irvrobinson]

People drastically overestimate the amount of power they "need."

Hmmm. I was just estimating this myself. My speakers are about 86db/2.83v/1m, and at my ear position I was just measuring 104db peaks with an 92db average level. At 1m from the lower midrange driver I measured 111db peaks at the same listening level. So what do you think, somewhere between 250 and 500 watts on peaks? I thought my previous 125w/ch amps sounded a little strained. It also makes me wonder how much those voice coils are heating up after a couple of hours of listening.

Maybe my next toy will be a 'scope to monitor the voltage at the amp output connectors.

I've become rather fascinated by experimenting with the Dayton Audio OmniMic set-up I recently acquired. Especially the spectrum analyzer. Most folks definitely guess that low bass in music has lower frequencies than it really does. They're usually about 10Hz low. (They guess a 50Hz tone at 40Hz.) One measure I've found I routinely underestimate is the loudness level on peaks. I honestly didn't think I broke 100db very often, and I'm routinely measuring peaks in the 102-105db range on the spectrum analyzer screen, with the mic right at my ear position.

 

[fuzz092888]

.....wh...y...??

Because I have more than two speakers and the crown is a stereo amp?

 

[GranteedEV]

Because I have more than two speakers and the crown is a stereo amp?

Your receiver can power the surrounds, if it can deliver about 20 - 25w.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm going to be using a processor, which is why I'm looking at amps at all.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm going to be using a processor, which is why I'm looking at amps at all.

....Then get a receiver

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just get the Denon AVR-990 (AKA AVR-3310CI, retailed $1500) for $582 + $22 s/h = $604 brand new.

Amazon.com: Used and New: Denon AVR990 7.1-Channel Multi-Zone Home Theater Receiver with Networking Capability and 1080p HDMI Connectivity

It has 120wpc x 7ch 8ohm. In 2Ch, it produces 160wpc 8ohm/200wpc 4ohm.

I think it will have enough power for you - Philharmonic 2/3, Ascend Sierra tower, Salk towers.

Upgradable - has 7.1 pre-out in case you add amp in future.

 

[Adam]

So, does this mean that I can get the Rotel?

 

[GranteedEV]

Just get the Denon AVR-990 (AKA AVR-3310CI, retailed $1500) for $582 + $22 s/h = $604 brand new.

I don't trust denon's pre-outs to be all that great. I would get a Marantz SR6006

MARANTZ SR6006 Home theater receiver 3D-ready HDMI Air Play | Accessories4less

The Marantz SR6004 ($1200) measured with 7V preouts. The Denon 5308 ($5500), only has 3.8V preouts. I can't imagine the 3310 having great preouts. The 431x should, though, based on my guess-logic.

 

[fuzz092888]

Just get the Denon AVR-990 (AKA AVR-3310CI, retailed $1500) for $582 + $22 s/h = $604 brand new.

Amazon.com: Used and New: Denon AVR990 7.1-Channel Multi-Zone Home Theater Receiver with Networking Capability and 1080p HDMI Connectivity

It has 120wpc x 7ch 8ohm. In 2Ch, it produces 160wpc 8ohm/200wpc 4ohm.

I think it will have enough power for you - Philharmonic 2/3, Ascend Sierra tower, Salk towers.

Upgradable - has 7.1 pre-out in case you add amp in future.

Something to think about, I like the idea of separates, balanced outputs, the option to swap out the processor when new features arise, and mix and match amps as my needs (or wants is probably a better word) dictate. However, I see where you're coming from and why you think I should just get the denon. Nothing is set in stone as of yet and I'm still in the research and audition phase of the whole ordeal So who's knows where I'll end up. I could end up with a HTIB

 

[fuzz092888]

So, does this mean that I can get the Rotel?

It certainly does not

 

[GranteedEV]

the option to swap out the processor when new features arise

Remember, that processors tend to have worse resale value, and higher retail prices.

Nothing's wrong with separates if you're willing to fund it, but I got the sense you don't know decisively what exactly you want out of your system, so I think it's a bit questionable that you'd be willing to fund "that".

I know you want a great system, and you came to the right place.

But it's so easy to get caught up in spending money. The onus is really on you to evaluate every aspect of the system that you're spending money on.

As nice as those Philharmonics are, they may not even be the "correct" speakers for your application. I know they're a damn good speaker for two-channel music, but they wouldn't be my first choice for a badass home theater. And mind you, they'd be my first choice for speakers right now.

As nice as amps are, they may take money away from your budget for subwoofers.

As nice as processors are, maybe you wouldn't notice the difference between one and a receiver in actual use.

As nice as one badass sub might be, maybe four badass subs would be the way to go.

Etc. Just slow it down. What precisely do you want from your system, short term, long term. I don't mean to lecture you, and I might have missed some of your other threads. I'm probably inciting the wrath of our dedicated prepro proponents right now and "in for it".

I'm the wrong person to be giving advice but I just have a suspicion that you've bought into a lot of hype elsewhere around electronics. I can't tell you if electronics make an audible difference, because people never agree on that, but I can tell you they don't make a significant one. Get half decent electronics, and have the rest of the system kick ***. TV, Projector, Speakers, subs, etc. Every penny saved somewhere, can be used elsewhere. As long as you're not getting questionable stuff like Panasonic or Onkyo I think there isn't really too much to even think about.

That doesn't mean we all wouldn't love the best dedicated processors and kilowatt mono amps that can drive 1 ohm loads.... I know I was a little bit sad when the Lexicon MP-20 became vaporware ( ). I just think that's the irrational side of us speaking, not the side of us that wants the best systems with fine-tuned room acoustics and speaker selection... moreso the side of us that's online at work trying to kill time with our imaginations.

 

[Adam]

Here's my experience with my system. Back in 2007, I got sucked into the AH "must upgrade" frenzy and decided that an amp might be the right thing to buy. Okay, okay - I'm blaming it on AH, but I get sucked into wanting to buy stuff all the time.

Now, for the actual information. I had a Pioneer VSX-1015 at the time. When listening at my normal levels, everything sounded fine. When I turned it up to once-a-year-if-that levels, it sounded (and forgive the subjective term) muffled. The dynamics were missing. When I bought an amp for the front two channels, it truly made a difference at those louder levels. The dynamics were there. At my normal listening levels, though - no difference. That's because normally I wasn't straining my receiver (insert scientific electrical phrases here). When I added a second amp for the center and surrounds, it made no difference at all.

To put it in perspective, though, I normally listen at < 50 dB. I say that based on my RS SPL meter not even registering when I check from time to time, and the lowest it goes is 50 dB.

So, as others have said, as long as you have enough power - you're golden. Now, onto another thing about amps. Mine hum. I hate it. I believe that the transformers aren't properly potted, as it's the copper windings that are humming. They hum even in standby, so I power them on and off manually with the rest of my system. So, some things to think about - build quality, customer service, and the ability to return something if you don't like it.

Also, weight. I mentioned that I'm looking at lighter amps. Heavy amps sound cool. They sound manly. They are a b***h to move. You might need to get different furniture to hold them.

Just some thoughts.

 

[GranteedEV]

Yikes what have I done? I didn't mean for this to turn into Adam's life story!

Back on Topic, these amps are really cool if you don't mind putting things together:

NC400

 

[fuzz092888]

Well you are correct in assuming I want a great system and I'm certainly new to this. I'm definitely not trying to spend more money than necessary and from what I've ready so far I'm starting where I think its most important to.

1. Two floor standing speakers

2. Something to process the signal

3. Something to power the speakers

Now I know some would disagree about my top 3 and I'm not necessarily even separating numbers 2 and 3 into separate components. I just know, for my applications as of now, to replace my old logitech z5500 system that got me through college, these are the three pieces that I can get all at once that will serve all my needs reasonably well, and allow me to build up around them. I'm not worried about resale value because whatever I get I'll probably use until it dies. Waste not want not

I will be listening to a an even mix of stereo music and home theatre and I think that the phil 3s will allow me to get excellent range without immediately feeling the need for a sub or multiple subs, plus it doesn't hurt that the cabinets are custom and I think they're pretty. I'm quite happy with my tv, that was my big investment in college (as nerdy as it sounds while other were out drinking I was saving that money to buy a tv ). Now I've moved on to sound.

I wasn't originally planning on getting an amp at all, it just kind of developed into that sort of direction. I like A/V receivers and I was planning on getting the Marantz SR6006 and it's still not out of the question, but I know at some point I'll want more power, and it will probably be much sooner than later. The reason I'm compelled to spend more money is because of hum and reliability, the presence of any hum or the lack of reliability would be completely unacceptable.

Maybe I am crazy and some may say I'm rushing, but I haven't bought anything yet which I'm pretty proud of myself for but I think those 3 (or 2) pieces of the system are a good place to start, maybe I'm wrong if I am I'm sure someone here will tell me hahaha