The Dolby Atmos Home Theater Paradox

How Many Speakers are You running in your Home Theater?

  • 5.1 or up to 5.4

    Votes: 108 46.8%
  • 6.1 or up to 6.4

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • 7.1 or up to 7.4

    Votes: 70 30.3%
  • 9.1 or up to 9.4

    Votes: 20 8.7%
  • 11.1 or up to 11.4

    Votes: 15 6.5%
  • Two-Channel is where it's at!

    Votes: 12 5.2%

  • Total voters
    231
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
[video=youtube;OXLQ4mIwyAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXLQ4mIwyAk[/video]
 
S

skris88

Audiophyte
Enthusiasts only

It's the act of a industry desperate to try and fuel more sales.

99% of consumers simply listen to their TV audio.

Consumers want simplicity, not more audio channels.

A half decent 2.0 amplifier built into the TV with a physical switch to turn off the internal loudspeakers and use full-range floor standing loudspeakers is probably the simplest and best way forwards, but I guess that is asking for far too much from an industry hell bent on technology complexity!
 
B

Bjorn

Enthusiast
I find Atmos utterly stupid for small rooms and something that only benfits the vendors. It will create a more chaotic response with loads of lobing. It's a little like Bose; Sound everywhere but poor sound everywhere.

If people desire more ambiance and a diffuse soundfield they should treat their room accordingly and use speakers with the needed dispersion pattern. That way you avoid adding those errors more speakers will have but still achieve more spaciousness. But hey, it's a lot easier to simply buy more speakers then treat the room using psycoacoustic principles, right? So the marked will probably buy this idea, have their mediocre sound, and someone are smiling when going to the bank.
 
C

crispy98007

Audiophyte
What's next? Dolby will come up with a "technology" for in-floor speakers for a true 3D surround, jut wait!
I was going to say the same thing...Fronts (L/C/R), sides, rears, ceiling L/R front, sides rears, and floor mounted (again L/R) front, sides and rears. With L/R subs front and rear, you've got a 19.4 system. Of course, we can add 6 more center floor and ceiling speakers for 25.4. WTF? The manufacturers will love you all, and are going to be laughing....all the way to the bank.
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
How many speakers? Its different for most given each ones circumstances of their own tolerances or wife if she doesn't mind as long as its done in another room and not the normal family living room. Some of that maybe single may not even tolerate more than 6 speakers.

I think I have around 36 speakers at present. :p Well why not some cinemas years ago may have only had 35 speakers but if its number of channels feed to each speaker, then cinemas have been partly geared up and unknowingly of what might come about in many years time with atmos now feeding each of the clusters of surrounds with independent sound feed placements where only a few amplifiers was used shared across so many wired in series/parallel so the amp sees a happy impedance signal and now these each surrounds have to be driven by their own amp and up goes the costs. The wiring should be the same as normally its all wired back in the booth on terminal block and only needs to be undone and re-wired.

Content for atmos at present is slim. The Jersey Boys as only been released as dtsHDMA 5.1 and no Dolby Atmos, not that I would buy it just odd thou it was announced on Dolby's FB wall only a few months ago.

I see other formats that have 9 or so more stage channels for upper and lower over the common middle stage channels. I think its time for discrete upper/lower stage channels and that mixers need to get more creative with the on-screen positioning of sound objects so they match the visual locations even thou its still going to be artificial and will never recreate real life. But it does make it, the film look exciting even if its dull or if its dire in the case of Transformers as I'm not buying no more Transformers. Transformers 3 was the last one and I'm not rushing out to buy T4 for sakes of 4 extra channels at high price tag for just one film.

I think W/S and scope films should use dialogue panned all across the screen all the time as in Real Life I never hear it in front of me all the time unless I happen to facing the person talking to me. If I have my head turned one way I might only hear them on my left ear. In a way I panned it myself. But we always face forwards to the screen and so we should be hearing the performers voices to left or right or centre or left-centre right-centre or if camera is moving all the way around and away from the performers the voices should do that GRAVITY style mix that wowed me in dtsHDMA 5.1 with PLIIx switched in to extract the side surrounds information and give greater depth around the room.

Not sure what this PLIIz does or is it like PLIIx only given a new name to sell to consumers? It can't do upper centre can it. It only does upper left right and wide and sounds like PLIIx. Has anyone only played the wide and height on its own with LCRS un-wired and PLIIx AVR wired up to Stereo Left/Right thou any of the Lt-Rt inputs and disconnect LCR output to only allow the wide/heights to play to see if they sound in anyway alike to PLIIz?
 
D

Diesel57

Full Audioholic
I find Atmos utterly stupid for small rooms and something that only benfits the vendors. It will create a more chaotic response with loads of lobing. It's a little like Bose; Sound everywhere but poor sound everywhere.

If people desire more ambiance and a diffuse soundfield they should treat their room accordingly and use speakers with the needed dispersion pattern. That way you avoid adding those errors more speakers will have but still achieve more spaciousness. But hey, it's a lot easier to simply buy more speakers then treat the room using psycoacoustic principles, right? So the marked will probably buy this idea, have their mediocre sound, and someone are smiling when going to the bank.
I agree, how much sound to need, sounds like a experiment to me.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
At AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/1773370-acoustics-immersive-audio.html

Anthony Grimani, CEO of MSR Acoustics, talks about immersive-sound systems from an acoustician's perspective, including speaker placement, frequency response, and dispersion as well as the acoustic character of the room. He also discusses rooms of different size, points out the importance of so-called "wide" speakers in front, addresses the spousal-acceptance factor of so many speakers, shows us several of his recent home-theater projects that include Dolby Atmos, answers chat-room questions, and more.
Video:

- Rich
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
You know this whole atmos might just flop. recent bluray releases.

The Jersey Boys dtsHDMA 5.1
Into the storm dtsHDMA 5.1
Lucy (it may seem will be dtsHDMA 5.1)

Only release is Transformers 4 Dolby trueHD 7.1 atmos. What a disappointing new format this is.

What they should have done is released content before selling these large paperweights sat around doing nothing other then dtsHDA very little Dolby TrueHD content around at present, as its mostly monopolized by dtsHDMA.
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
Dolby trueHD 7.1 atmos


Dolby trueHD 7.1 atmos



Dolby do I care 7.1 atmos about this. Looks like if I wasted money on this my cat will go hungry for a week. I'll think I feed my cat instead.

Due next year Dolby trueHD 7.1 atmos might buy this again only for Dolby trueHD 7.1 and Ed Harris, never sounded so sexy cool with his, voice being panned around all the room on dtsHDMA 5.1 with PLIIx as well.



Films never made it to Dolby trueHD 7.1 atmos bluray.

dtsHDMA 7.1


dtsHDMA 7.1


dtsHDMA 5.1


dtsHDMA 7.1


dtsHDMA 5.1


details on this is may only be dtsHDMA 5.1
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I certainly don't intend to go beyond 7.1. Under domestic conditions I think 7.1 is max. I think people would be far better off with better speakers than more speakers.

I don't subscribe to the view that surround speakers can be far less capable than the rest. I fail to see how most surround speakers in use can really bring any benefit to the table. I would never consider adding a lousy ceiling speaker for instance.

I don't think height channels are necessary in the home. With my system I get lots of height information, even with good two channel recordings.

I have a significant amount of program which pushes all speakers hard, and I can't begin to imagine the effect if all speakers were not powerful capable speakers.

I get excellent 360 degree localization and depth, as well as seamless overhead trajectories.

I've been saying that since height/width channel capable AVRs have been around. If you have quality LCRs and properly setup, H/W channels are not needed. I certainly have never thought I needed them.
I am running large 3-ways for all 6 channels and many times only watch movies using the main L/R + subs.
I have zero desire to add ATMOS.
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
A simple overhead surround well it has to consist of many cheap bookshelf speakers for the surrounds otherwise it will surly bust the budget and the "x wife factor show" will be sharping the axe in the shed.

Overhead surrounds isn't a new invention to me. It has been done at UCI tower park 10 screen plex 25 years ago and worked fairly well with the number of films I projected or if had time nip into the auditorium or of off days pop down and pay to see a film in Dolby Stereo or SR.

The speakers where as remember where EV Electro Voice that had slanted angle on the baffle and was attached to the suspended ceiling in the various two size auditoriums small and large. Small ran though 1 to 4 and 7 to 10. Large was 5 and 6. The arrangement in the smaller screens was bit odd due to where the booth was located.

Rough layout of what UCI overhead surrounds Dolby Stereo A SR looked like, 25 years ago. Smaller screens with one door to projection booth a few steps to walk up and cake platters in the middle with Cinemeccanica Victoria 5 35mm and Dolby CP55 with SRA5 Spectral Recording.




If I was going to replicated the overhead surround like one of the larger screens 5 and 6 I think they had x6 or x8 EV on the ceiling? Its 25 years ago.

I would fit just any good cheap bookshelf to the ceiling along with same for side wall and back wall fit a few subs on the surrounds to extend the lows down further. I think my Harman Kardon AVP1a has multi outputs with sub bass surrounds, thou I use it for filtering other subs LCR extension and seat shakers at 80Hz just to cut some corners. It seems now with atmos they add in sub bass on the surrounds and I think Lexicon and Harman have already done this, yonks ago.

If I had another few matching cheap AVR with PLIIx I would splice the outputs RCA from main AVR into the side wall surrounds and of the x2 matched same AVR just use Lt/Rt input and use the PLIIx matrix decoding for cheap ebay fun of surround as the typical AVR with yesterdays with all the bells and whistles on it, can be brought for ether £150.00 or under £100.00 and use the amps on it to power the side wall and back wall and overhead surround arrays and use the crossover to feed subs though the sub RCA output to some arrays of surround subs.

If the room is large lucky for some then fit all the bookshelf into the false plasterboard (drywall) along with the smaller size subs matched or why not try car hi-fi subs and some pre-made boxes that should keep the costs down and buy some second hand amplifiers to run the subs and EQ 1/3 for each sub or if fussy use a DSP parametric type.

If you use the speaker outputs on the AVR most have auto EQ maybe who knows an Audyssey and just set the mics up and run the test for each AVR one at a time it would be tricky to set-up cos the main AVR will have ether an Audyssey and if so it would have to be switched off as any surround EQ would mess up the matrix signal on the other AVR's. Myself I rather use 1/3 its a lot faster for me to do it and check each channel/s at same time.

The surrounds (mono pole) keep them spaced apart on side wall and as shown above so the U.S.S. Enterprise on TOS STAR TREK region 1 first pressing same as region 2 DVD 5.1 whooshes along the side wall each right then to left and right and left on the opening titles. The spacing of the surrounds will have some diffusion and some location cue, without the TNG "Q".

Also a good episode Court Martial where captain Kirk, goes looking for Finney, in the engineering room, the voice Finney, pans along each side surround and nicely fills in my reference Dolby THX cinema over wide listening area around the seating.


Another old use with matched matrix decoders is creating a 5 screen front. maybe that is better than PLIIz. I'd like to have cheap PLIIz AVR to compare with PLIIx and put each one though a close thorough scrutiny listening test.

A PLIIx AVR has 7 directional full range channels. Front LCR or LR will be used for side wall surrounds the centre can be used say a middle over or just experiment with it and watch/listen to the film closely to see where sound objects are move off too?

Use the surrounds well maybe overhead left/right and the rear surrounds left/right maybe as below seating surrounds that is what I would go for or try each surround and back surround to see what the decoder makes of it? Experimental is all it. Repeat the same idea for back wall surrounds and see how back that can be expanded?

I think some other enthusiasts have ether already given it a try?

I'd use the LCR and and LR for back wall and centre for extra centre back surround? ether placed on same wall shared between the other x2 surrounds on the wall? Experiment with it, have fun.
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
Yet another atmos gone to dtsHDMA 7.1 and another reason why Dolby home atmos should be passed on with expensive AVP AVR and no content to back it all up with. What a waste of money for paperweight AVR and only a few titles. If I was you sell your atmos get your money fully refunded and get back that other AVR you spent thousands on and let it have 10 years use in the home. atmos in my view is fail. So they get consumers to spend out on dtsHDMA then in maybe 5 or 6 months release an atmos to get more money from consumers. Bloody cheeky is what I call it.


 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm happy with my 6.1 setup and can't see myself ever adopting Dolby Atmos, at least not in the small area that I have setup for myself.
 
AVisualGeek

AVisualGeek

Enthusiast
I haven't had the chance to play with Atmos yet. One of these days I will be able to, and when I do....I think my roof is going to have some new holes cut into it...so I hope I do it right the first time ^_^
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
The Maze Runner (2014) has gone straight to dtsHDMA 7.1 meat grinder!

Are we all getting the hint now that you been taken for a ride with atmos and those atmos enable
speakers bounce sound off the ceiling.

Glad I didn't buy atmos I knew it was a con and auro no better dts UHD MD will be making some sneaky deal with studios no doubt to monopolize the sound format home market with its next sound 3d format. I bet that won't have BELOW SURROUND or any fancy 9 or 15 stage channels.
What was waste money.

As for this film. I'd sooner spend £25.00 on cat food to feed my cat for 8 weeks, rather than wasting on film that should have gone straight to Dolby TrueHD 7.1 atmos.


Mark my words there won't be nowhere near 50 Dolby TrueHD atmos releases on bluray by July 2015. atmos and all this 3d overhead is total bollocks!

I'd use some free imagination with a £200.00 $200.00 or less with ebay, buy a few cheap'o AVR 7.1 with PLIIx and buy a few and use them wired to existing AVR one for fronts and one for side wall surround and one for rear back and muck around for next nothing cost with creating your own OVERHEAD and BELOW SURROUND EXTENSION.

Otherwise I would suggest a suggestion I can't suggest is to wait 2 years and see how this atmos auro dts OVERHEAD 3d sound mad house turns out?
 
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A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
I guess no harm looking at the current AVR with atmos to see what prices they'll be selling at in 2 years?

Onkyo TX NR1030 (silver) caught my eye but does it come in black. :D

I gather it would have upscale for my Laserdiscs or DVD.

The extra HDMI inputs 7 of them over the 5 I have on my TH SR-875 x2 extra is beneficial I guess?

Few optical inputs on it but I guess a optical extender can be used plugged in.

I'll see how cheap this model can drop down to in 2 years? If its still pricey I can wait bit longer...no rush.
 
A

andyblackcat

Audioholic General
Big Hero 6 (2014) another Dolby hyped atmos not fit for home atmos release gone to dtsHDMA 5.1.
 
mpitogo2000

mpitogo2000

Audioholic Intern
Here is my limited experience with Atmos from an AV novice. As a young kid I ran across stereo magazines at my public library and one cover struck me with awe and it was the Polk SRS SDA, wow when I grow up I'd like those...

FAst forward a bit to present

Late 2014 was the year I got back into Audio and Video after over a decade with system that has had very few minor changes. I jumped to Atmos via the Marantz SR7009 but mainly because my trusty Made in Japan 2003 Denon AVR4802R couldn't switch HDMI and I had some audio lag. My sources were switching video on the TV (HDMI) and audio was switched on the receiver (optical digital). Sound was good from the Denon but watching tv looked like lip sync.

Over a decade was a good run as the heart of nearly daily used family room system the Denon lived in. I wanted change, I researched receivers and narrowed to a toss up between Pioneer and the Marantz. Marantz reviews won me over and Audyssey helped me rediscover the sound experience of AV content. Because of D&M holdings the Denon and Marantz were essentially the same so I opted to change there as well. Once in the heft surprised me. The outgoing Denon has 7 amps for DD-ES/DTS-EX @ 125wpc was bigger and heftier, while the new Marantz has a more compact chassis boasting 9 amps @ 125wpc 8ohms and is lighter. Can power be the same? In long forgotten magazine reviews the 4802R was tested capable of driving 165w before clipping with 1 channel driven. I probably should not be concerned except the Denon ran cool when operating while the Marantz runs hot (normally I guess). Only time will tell and will I still have the Marantz in a decade.

Previously the Denon was driving all Polk RT55 LR, CS400 center and FX500 surrounds and DSW microPRO 3000 in 5.1. Late 90s vintage except the DSW upgrade from the original PSW450.

The Denon living quite a long time could not be parted with and the paltry resale value would probably not buy a better integrated amp with a DAC. So it is now running 2.1 full time in a living room setup with the Polk RT55 and the PSW450 mentioned above. (Sadly the other 5 channels are idle). The system is used occasionally and used exclusively in PureDirect mode with optical input from an Airport Express AirPlay source. The previous living room system was run by Airport Express using an analog connection into an AMC 2445 4 ch bridged to 2x90w stereo driving Jamo speakers and the PSW450.

Today the Marantz is set up with Atmos using ML Motion 40 LR, Polk CS400 center, FX500 surrounds LR, Polk T15 for surround back LR, height LR and two subs, Polk DSW microPRO 3000 and an ML Dynamo 500. All of it sounding great with Audyssey calibration and only Dynamic EQ turned on. In stereo mode Audyssey is set to L&R bypass.

After all that I have yet to play any true Atmos content except for what is mixed from the mainly 5.1 sources I watch. The surround back made more of an impact than the height channels. None of m BD has Atmos nor the new ones I buy nor the TV I tune or stream or rent online.

I could have just easily gone Outlaw or Emotiva AV processor outputting into a very good existing Denon amp section with its analog multi-channel ext-in had it not been for the lure of Atmos. But blessing in disguise the outlaw and Emotiva would not have had Audyssey XT32 multi-eq so no regrets going with the Marantz SR7009 unless it dies the day after its warranty expires.
 
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