The AVP (D+M anyway..) that has the lowest THD+N measured so far seems to be a Denon AVR!!

[PENG]

It is no longer the AVR-X3600H, it just got demoted to No.2/3, along with the Emotiva RMC-1.

Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X8500H Flagship 13.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $3999. The 8500H is a beast: it is both deep and heavy. Thankfully the transformer is centrally located so as manageable as 51...

www.audiosciencereview.com

0.0007%, or -103 dB

The amp section did not measure too well though, about the same as the likes of the Outlaw M2200, not as good as the its littlest brother X3600H, amazingly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Looks like 256W x 2Ch 4 ohms, 171W x 2Ch 8 ohms, 1% THD?

I guess he doesn't believe in Crosstalk measurement like The Audio Critic, Stereophile, S&V, and AH.

 

[slipperybidness]

It is no longer the AVR-X3600H, it just got demoted to No.2/3, along with the Emotiva RMC-1.

Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X8500H Flagship 13.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $3999. The 8500H is a beast: it is both deep and heavy. Thankfully the transformer is centrally located so as manageable as 51...

www.audiosciencereview.com

0.0007%, or -103 dB

The amp section did not measure too well though, about the same as the likes of the Outlaw M2200, not as good as the its littlest brother X3600H, amazingly.

I'm a bit confused.....high THD+N = Bad!

I thinking the title should be "low THD+N", or "best THD+N", or "highest S/N"????

 

[DJ7675]

I'm a bit confused.....high THD+N = Bad!

I thinking the title should be "low THD+N", or "best THD+N", or "highest S/N"????

Highest SINAD which is lowest noise plus distortion. I rather like it as opposed to the more traditional .00xxx format. It is easier to read/compare, at least for me!

 

[PENG]

Looks like 256W x 2Ch 4 ohms, 171W x 2Ch 8 ohms, 1% THD?

I guess he doesn't believe in Crosstalk measurement like The Audio Critic, Stereophile, S&V, and AH.

He did measure cross talk, most of the time anyway. None of the Denon, or any AVR measured well on that one, understandably. Even the $6,600 NAD preamp/processor managed just -92 dB at 1 kHz and -71 dB at 20 kHz, vs the X3600H's -85 dB/-68.5 dB, 1/20 kHz. He typically would note something like "not an audible concern.." Put it this way, you can spend more, such as $6,000 on a Ortofon Xpression and you will be lucky to get 25 dB of channel separation at 15 kHz.

 

[PENG]

I'm a bit confused.....high THD+N = Bad!

I thinking the title should be "low THD+N", or "best THD+N", or "highest S/N"????

Thank you, I actually meant highest -ve number in dB (i.e. -103 dB as stated in the post), but you are absolutely right, it was confusing for sure.

 

[PENG]

Highest SINAD which is lowest noise plus distortion. I rather like it as opposed to the more traditional .00xxx format. It is easier to read/compare, at least for me!

He was right though as I did refer to THD+N, not SINAD. That's why he found it confusing. Thread title edited.

 

[lovinthehd]

Looks like 256W x 2Ch 4 ohms, 171W x 2Ch 8 ohms, 1% THD?

I guess he doesn't believe in Crosstalk measurement like The Audio Critic, Stereophile, S&V, and AH.

Peng beat me to it with the vinyl snark on crosstalk measurements Seriously, has this been an issue in recent years whatsoever?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

He did measure cross talk, most of the time anyway. None of the Denon, or any AVR measured well on that one, understandably. Even the $6,600 NAD preamp/processor managed just -92 dB at 1 kHz and -71 dB at 20 kHz, vs the X3600H's -85 dB/-68.5 dB, 1/20 kHz. He typically would note something like "not an audible concern.." Put it this way, you can spend more, such as $6,000 on a Ortofon Xpression and you will be lucky to get 25 dB of channel separation at 15 kHz.

Did he also say, "NOT an AUDIBLE concern" for THD+N, SINAD, and all the other measurements?

I mean who's going to hear THD of less than 0.1%, but he talks like THD of 0.01% or higher is a concern?

BTW, the Yamaha RX-A1020 had a Crosstalk @ 1kHz of -99.5dB and -103.6dB on S&V.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Peng beat me to it with the vinyl snark on crosstalk measurements Seriously, has this been an issue in recent years whatsoever?

Has THD+N ever been an issue in any years? But Amir sure make it out like THD of > 0.01% is horrible, right?

So many of us have never looked at crosstalk, SNR, THD, FR, SINAD, etc. as a "concern" because they are inaudible. But if we're going to compare numbers, then let's look at all the numbers, including crosstalk.

 

[PENG]

Did he also say, "NOT an AUDIBLE concern" for THD+N, SINAD, and all the other measurements?

I mean who's going to hear THD of less than 0.1%, but he talks like THD of 0.01% or higher is a concern?

BTW, the Yamaha RX-A1020 had a Crosstalk @ 1kHz of -99.5dB and -103.6dB on S&V.

Those days are gone, basically, avrs/able are more jam packed now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those days are gone, basically, avrs/able are more jam packed now.

The RX-A1020 is a 7.2 AVR.

Yamaha RX-A1020 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 113.5 watts 1% distortion at 129.2 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 63.9 watts 1% distortion at 73.2 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

I remember when The Audio Critic reviewed the Acurus RL11 Analog 2Ch Preamp (no Tones, no DSP, nothing). It had a Crosstalk of -92dB at 1kHz and Peter Aczel was saying that was great.

 

[lovinthehd]

Has THD+N ever been an issue in any years? But Amir sure make it out like THD of > 0.01% is horrible, right?

So many of us have never looked at crosstalk, SNR, THD, FR, SINAD, etc. as a "concern" because they are inaudible. But if we're going to compare numbers, then let's look at all the numbers, including crosstalk.

Gotcha. I still am reminded by Douglas Self's (amp designer) comments on crosstalk:
"Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Gotcha. I still am reminded by Douglas Self's (amp designer) comments on crosstalk:
"Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"

What did he say about THD? Don't worry unless THD is > 1%, which would be a CLIPPING amplifier?

Yeah, most of us here on AH have never worried about any of these numbers.

Now we see ASR talk about THD of 0.0007% and saying that THD of 0.003% (SINAD -90dB) isn't SOTA?

 

[slipperybidness]

Gotcha. I still am reminded by Douglas Self's (amp designer) comments on crosstalk:
"Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"

Right....and good to see you quoting one of the great amp designers!
You do know you can buy his designs? Of course, he has commercial designs for various companies, but this is his direct site:

The Signal Transfer Company

The Signal Transfer Company, audio, preamp, power amps

www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com

Now, think about "crosstalk" in a real world music venue.......it kind of loses all significance because of course your ears will have "crosstalk"

 

[slipperybidness]

What did he say about THD? Don't worry unless THD is > 1%, which would be a CLIPPING amplifier?

Yeah, most of us here on AH have never worried about any of these numbers.

Now we see ASR talk about THD of 0.0007% and saying that THD of 0.003% (SINAD -90dB) isn't SOTA?

I'm not sure about Douglas Self, but G Randy Slone says the design goal of any amplifier should be THD+N <0.1%

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not sure about Douglas Self, but G Randy Slone says the design goal of any amplifier should be THD+N <0.1%

If Amir sees a THD of 0.099%, he'll probably say it's CRAP.

 

[PENG]

Did he also say, "NOT an AUDIBLE concern" for THD+N, SINAD, and all the other measurements?

I mean who's going to hear THD of less than 0.1%, but he talks like THD of 0.01% or higher is a concern?

BTW, the Yamaha RX-A1020 had a Crosstalk @ 1kHz of -99.5dB and -103.6dB on S&V.

I don't know about Doug Self, but I doubt Amir would go that far, but I have seen him calm people down by saying something like:

"You won't be able to hear it. The distortion is still low enough to not be noticed in normal listening. "

Denon AVR-X6700H Home Theater AVR Review

I am looking forward to the Amir testing on the x8500h, to see how the slightly different design will show up in testing. It sounds great so far, one week in. Does anyone else have the 8500? How does it sound from listening test, what is your experience?

www.audiosciencereview.com

0.1% may look fine to most people if that is the worse case scenario, but if it is measured with a 1 kHz signal at rated output, then it could be much higher at 10 kHz and it may also be much higher at between 0.2 to 1 W.

So for me, if it is something measured by S&V, typically at 1 kHz and at rated output, I would want to see no more than 0.05%, knowing that under some conditions it could be much higher.

As far as what is the acceptable level of THD, it could be a matter of opinion to some extent, but in general the lower the better.

 

[GatorPigDog]

Glad it tested well. I will be wiring an armada of speakers to mine soon.

 

[lovinthehd]

Right....and good to see you quoting one of the great amp designers!
You do know you can buy his designs? Of course, he has commercial designs for various companies, but this is his direct site:

The Signal Transfer Company

The Signal Transfer Company, audio, preamp, power amps

www.signaltransfer.freeuk.com

Now, think about "crosstalk" in a real world music venue.......it kind of loses all significance because of course your ears will have "crosstalk"

I haven't got the bug for a diy amp....yet. Thanks for the website, hadn't been there.