The “Sound” of receivers…

[Rob Babcock]

Alas, I don't have the Clark papers and am only familiar with them thru numerous citations in other articles. I'm broke, too. From where I sit this sure feels like a "jobless recovery".

My problem exactly.

 

[mtrycrafts]

There's a DIY ABX comparator on the Elliot Sound site. Wiring on the random switcher looks like a beotch. Link

Been tempted to try it myself someday.

BTW, the Southeast Michigan Woofer & Tweeter Marching Society (great name!), with whom Clark did a lot of his ABX research, is still in existence right here in greater Deeetroit. I am thinking of joining, though ABXing seems to be old news to them these days. They do still have a sceptical orientation.

Alas, I don't have the Clark papers and am only familiar with them thru numerous citations in other articles. I'm broke, too. From where I sit this sure feels like a "jobless recovery".

I read some other articles by Ian Masters after being impressed by the '"amp sounds" one...looks like a straight shooter and good explainer of audio topics. Worth a bookmark!

Rob, S&V seems to have some sharp cookies on staff like David Ranada so I imagine the test was conducted well. But I bet "something else" accounts for the positive result: I'm betting on an audibly colored tube amp from your initial report.

You live near and not a member? That should be your first on the do list. They have lots of field trips, guest speakers, etc. And, I bet they have all the papers too and more. Then you don't have to build your own ABX box. Membership is very reasonable too.

 

[toquemon]

I performed a test with four amplifiers in mi house. A cheap piece of junk Sony DP-something receiver, a Nakamichi AV-10 Receiver, a Yamaha RX-v1400 and an Onkyo TX-DS575X receiver. All tone controls flat, direct source, same speakers (first with a set of Yamaha NS-300 front, Yamaha NS-C300 centre and Celestion F-10 surrounds, NO SUBWOOFER. Then we swich them for a pair of Cerwin Vega 280 SE Front, Polk Audio Cs245i centre and Yamaha NS-A425 surrounds. NO SUBWOOFER. We thougt that the use of a subwoofer may alterate the test, I don't know if we're right about that. We tried them with music and movies, 2ch stereo and 5ch (the Nakamichi doesn't have this feature) stereo).
The results: I couldn't belive them!

None of us could hear a damn difference!.
We're all actuaries and performed and ANOVA analysis (to see if there are significative differences between populations, taking each one of us as an independent population)

I was very upset because I couldn't hear any difference between my Yamaha and the Sony piece of junk.
Of course they were differences between the first set of speakers and the other set of speakers and I think it's because the Cerwin Vegas (they have a LOT of coloration in bass notes).

So, if you don't know with receiver you might buy, buy the cheapest!

 

[mtrycrafts]

bThe results: I couldn't belive them!

None of us could hear a damn difference!.

If you are not pulling our leggs, history is supporting you uncer level matched and bias controlled listening



I was very upset because I couldn't hear any difference between my Yamaha and the Sony piece of junk.

But that should make some happy

Of course they were differences between the first set of speakers and the other set of speakers and I think it's because the Cerwin Vegas (they have a LOT of coloration in bass notes).

Yes, this is where the differences are. Speakers are just too difficult to make that can have specs similar to other components. Maybe one day.

So, if you don't know with receiver you might buy, buy the cheapest!

Well, I wouldn't go that far unless it meets your needs, flexibility, even aesthetics may be important at times

 

[Polkfan]

mtrycrafts wrote:


"Well, I wouldn't go that far unless it meets your needs, flexibility, even aesthetics may be important at times"



I concur. While difficult to distinguish sound, there are myriad options, bells and whistles to take into consideration. That really seems to be where receivers shine. But the test was informative. Then there is the quality factor as well. Why I will never buy Sony again-I bought two receivers (same models) about 6 years ago manufactured by Sony. Both units did not work out of the box. They were purchased from Sears, but two bad units in a row. That argument can be made for all receivers I guess, although I doubt two in a row would fail.

Kenwood really touts the features aspect, but they lack in power from what I have read. It would be interesting to do an A/B test with Kenwood in there somewhere. And they offer what seems to be to good of a deal for the price. The cheapest receiver suggestion can bring home some bad apples.

 

[Karp]

I beg to differ. In my opinion, there is no difference between amplifiers at low volumes, but the cheaper amps just don't have the power to provide full-bandwidth to the speakers at higher volumes. Even at moderate volumes, the better amps provide sharper, fuller base and less strained midrange. Do you believe that the large caps and better transformers that the better amps provide are there for nothing? I think that the cheaper amps start to falter well before actually clipping. The effects may vary according to how easy the speakers are to drive and other factors.

 

[av_phile]

You often have to be very familiar with the source materials you are playiing. The difference between amps and between separates and receivers can be subtle. But differences in sonic character do exists. When I swtiched from using the amps of an Onkyo flagship receiver to an Acurus amp, using the same Rotel pre/pro and mordaunt-short speakers, the sonic differences was clearly apparent on the same materials I am most familar with - a Fourplay and a Laura Fygi album. The power is twice, from 110wpc to 250wpc, so I had to do some level matching. (Anything louder is always perceived as better.) But the bass definition (without subwoofer) was more pronounced and the stereo separation wider with the center voice more focused. On the first Fourplay album, I heard a distinct clarity in instruments that wasn't there before or faintly hinted only. In short, upgrading from a reciever to separates became an entirely subtle but revealling listening experience altogether, so that I ended up emptying my CD collection anew. For about a month.

Previous to this, I had the impression that among excellent amplifiers there would be little or no sonic differences on purely listening tests. Measurement differences in THDs, IMs, frequency responses, slew rates, damping factors, etc, are often so minute as to make audible differences. That's why I was most surprised, pleasantly, to hear the difference I did when I upgraded. Perhaps the comparison is a bit strained. Maybe the Onkyo receiver's amp section is really not as excellent as that of the Acurus. But there must surely be a case when it comes to upgrading from receivers to separates. The onkyo flagship wasn't any slouch, having enjoyed it for a couple of years and was presumably voted "receiver of the year" sometime in the mid-90s. But I must agree with many audiophiles that separates are the de facto gears when serious listening is called for. My exprience confirms it.

In general, all-in-one recievers simply cannot be at par with specialized boxes optimised for their respective functions. Looking at their specifications, they may look about the same. And they can easily sport the most bells and whistles in the processor stages that can put a separate processor to shame. But I really doubt that commerical receivers are as conservatively specified as separates. I think that's the key. Conservatism. Often, receivers compete for the most market segments and must rely on hype to sell. Separates are not so competitive. So they tell it as it is. I am sure a lot out there will dispute my observations. I couldn't care less. This is my experience. And is shared by many who put separates above anything receivers have to offer. Maybe the older receivers are no match to the newer receivers. But if receivers can improve that much, I am sure separates have as well.

 

[ruadmaa]

Did you bother to read the link suggested by mtrycrafts earlier in this thread??? I am referring to the mastersonaudio link he listed. If you have read it, what part didn't you understand??? Perhaps you have been reading too many of those "Audiophile" rags and actually believe them.

 

[Polkfan]

Do you believe that the large caps and better transformers that the better amps provide are there for nothing?

Larger (better?) transformers supply more power, while larger capacitors store more power. This will allow the amplifier to play louder and have more reserve current for those large transients. But as we all know, to get a 3dB increase in volume, you have to double the power. The real question is can you actually hear the difference at what would be considered normal listening levels, not at 120dB? For me that is about 75-90 dB. Anything above that is loud by any standard.

And let's not forget the concept of a blinded test. Knowing what type of equipment one is listening to will influence one's perception.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Larger (better?) transformers supply more power, while larger capacitors store more power. This will allow the amplifier to play louder and have more reserve current for those large transients. But as we all know, to get a 3dB increase in volume, you have to double the power. The real question is can you actually hear the difference at what would be considered normal listening levels, not at 120dB? For me that is about 75-90 dB. Anything above that is loud by any standard.

And let's not forget the concept of a blinded test. Knowing what type of equipment one is listening to will influence one's perception.

75dB -90dB is about 1 watt of amp power
Perception, LOL. How interesting it can be. If only our sense were a bit more stringent, bs proof, the audio industry would harly exist

Audio industry? H.., most consumer marketplace would not exist.

Hate to think of the unemployment rates then, LOL

 

[Unregistered]

75dB -90dB is about 1 watt of amp power

Only 1 meter from the speaker. The sound level decreases as the square of distance. You need alot more than 1 watt to achieve 90dB at the listening position. Nonetheless, it doesn't take extreme power to achieve loud levels in the average living room.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Only 1 meter from the speaker. The sound level decreases as the square of distance. You need alot more than 1 watt to achieve 90dB at the listening position. Nonetheless, it doesn't take extreme power to achieve loud levels in the average living room.

Yep, of course you are correct

 

[Karp]

Speakers require different loads and their resistance changes depending on what frequencies they are being required to reproduce and how hard they are being driven. Amps with anemic power supplies sound.. well... anemic when they are pushed hard. Even well before you can detect clipping.
If you are comparing two amplifiers and neither one is being pushed very hard, I am sure it is very difficult for anyone to detect any differences in sound. Start to push them and I am sure you can hear the difference between various amps. Some start to sound harsh. Some seem to get louder, but the bass doesn't increase as much as the highs and mids. Some are very linear up to the point of clipping.

 

[av_phile]

No doubt about that. It's when the amps start to crave for more power that is just not there that they start to sound entirely different from one that has all the power reserves at its arsenal. In short, it's when they start to clip that you can detect differences.

But having said that, when I was a lot younger engaged in the DIY hobby, I recall I could detect some differences between 2 amp kits of the same power rating with dissimilar frequency responses curves and -3db points at the bandwidth extremes. With all controls flat, level-matched, the presense or absence of deep bass can be very perceptible. And more perceptible are the details in the higher regions. These days, I would probably have difficulty comparing the highs, but I wouldn't have any illusion amps sound the same at whatever price range or between them.

 

[mtrycrafts]

but I wouldn't have any illusion amps sound the same at whatever price range or between them.

And you probably will never know as you'd have to do a DBT comparison. Then you will not like the outcome. Or, maybe they are different after all. You will never know for sure though.

 

[av_phile]

I am not entirely convince I need to know. DBTs are purely statistical and its relevance in a subjective and personal hobby has little value on the beliefs and preferences of hobbyists. I think my ideas on this are well expounded on another thread. Ask your colleague Rob.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Hold your horses, AV Phile. Of course you're correct, there is a massive conspiracy dedicated to your personal unhappiness, and Mtrycrafts is naturally one of my Agents. But don't flatter yourself that all the attention is on you. I haven't yet decided which of my minions I should assign to your persecution this week (there's a meeting of the AH Secret Police around midnight tonight- D'oh! Guess now it's not a secret!).

Ah, so many earnest Golden Ears to unfairly harrangue, and so little staff & resources with which to do it... What with kittens to torture, candy to steal from babies, crutches to kick out from under the elderly- it's hard to find time in the day. You know how it is for Evil Secret Orders.

Once I've determined your harrassement priority I'll get back to you...

 

[av_phile]

As they say, bring it on.

 

[Rob Babcock]

As they say, bring it on.

Man, what a letdown! I was waitin' for a zinger! All that total sarcasm, gone completely to waste!

You're no fun to persecute at all.

 

[av_phile]

Probably because I don't feel persecuted. And I'm not in the mood for zingers.