SVS PB13-Ultra vs PB-4000 Compared!

[shadyJ]

how do you use the room gain compensation mode? Is it on the app?

The room gain compensation is on the app. It mostly just adjusts the level centered around 20 Hz, so it adjusts the amount of deep bass that will be produced. I would use it if you feel you have too much deep bass. If not, I would just leave it.

 

[Danzilla31]

The room gain compensation is on the app. It mostly just adjusts the level centered around 20 Hz, so it adjusts the amount of deep bass that will be produced. I would use it if you feel you have too much deep bass. If not, I would just leave it.

The only time I've had an issue is last night with underworld awakening. That movie has the sickest bass I've ever heard and I've heard a lot of em. When the Lycan scene where Selene firsts fights the giant Lycan in the coven. I just feel somethings off. I almost thought the subs were bottoming out. I got up and checked I don't think that's what it is. But there set at -15 on the subs and -8 and -7 on the avr and not even Tron Legacy or Blade runner 2049 made me hear them sound like that. I'm trying to figure out if it's just some sick sick bass I went up to the subs and checked em close I don't think it's port noise and I don't think they're bottoming after researching. I'm thinking maybe distortion but I'm not seeing how with those setting from the AVR after Audyssey I was so happy with its setting I've never even ran em hot. I'm going to run it in 3 port mode and see if that makes a difference. But I'm gonna relisten to it first and try to see what's causing the issue. Probably my house frame is moving again lol

 

[snakeeyes]

Ok now I need to watch underworld awakening.

I got a ton of bass the other day from the DTS DVD of The Haunting. I had to adjust the bass down.

 

[shadyJ]

The only time I've had an issue is last night with underworld awakening. That movie has the sickest bass I've ever heard and I've heard a lot of em. When the Lycan scene where Selene firsts fights the giant Lycan in the coven. I just feel somethings off. I almost thought the subs were bottoming out. I got up and checked I don't think that's what it is. But there set at -15 on the subs and -8 and -7 on the avr and not even Tron Legacy or Blade runner 2049 made me hear them sound like that. I'm trying to figure out if it's just some sick sick bass I went up to the subs and checked em close I don't think it's port noise and I don't think they're bottoming after researching. I'm thinking maybe distortion but I'm not seeing how with those setting from the AVR after Audyssey I was so happy with its setting I've never even ran em hot. I'm going to run it in 3 port mode and see if that makes a difference. But I'm gonna relisten to it first and try to see what's causing the issue. Probably my house frame is moving again lol

It might not be the subs, but something else that the subs are affecting. It could also be port chuffing, but it isn't likely to be bottoming out. These subs can't be made to bottom out, unless maybe you had the EQ set to extension mode but left all the ports open. It would be an obvious and scary sound though, so I am sure that didn't happen. The subs can be made to chuff though, no ported sub is immune to chuffing. Chuffing isn't going to hurt your sub, but it just sounds goofy.

 

[lovinthehd]

These subs can't be made to bottom out, .

Even if you boosted external eq sufficiently?

 

[Danzilla31]

It might not be the subs, but something else that the subs are affecting. It could also be port chuffing, but it isn't likely to be bottoming out. These subs can't be made to bottom out, unless maybe you had the EQ set to extension mode but left all the ports open. It would be an obvious and scary sound though, so I am sure that didn't happen. The subs can be made to chuff though, no ported sub is immune to chuffing. Chuffing isn't going to hurt your sub, but it just sounds goofy.

It could be chuffing it is in 2 port extended mode it kindoff sounds like the time I pushed them though and the house was warping. So I'm going to walk around and make sure cuz when I get close to them I don't hear any chuffing or issues with driver distress it may be something on the house. Other then that these just sound fantastic

 

[Danzilla31]

It might not be the subs, but something else that the subs are affecting. It could also be port chuffing, but it isn't likely to be bottoming out. These subs can't be made to bottom out, unless maybe you had the EQ set to extension mode but left all the ports open. It would be an obvious and scary sound though, so I am sure that didn't happen. The subs can be made to chuff though, no ported sub is immune to chuffing. Chuffing isn't going to hurt your sub, but it just sounds goofy.

If I'm warping the house again that's so friggin cool man

 

[lovinthehd]

If I'm warping the house again that's so friggin cool man

Until you find cracks in tiles/plaster etc

 

[KEW]

If I'm warping the house again that's so friggin cool man

That's what this homeowner said!
There are limits to just how realistic you want that explosion to sound!!!

 

[Danzilla31]

It might not be the subs, but something else that the subs are affecting. It could also be port chuffing, but it isn't likely to be bottoming out. These subs can't be made to bottom out, unless maybe you had the EQ set to extension mode but left all the ports open. It would be an obvious and scary sound though, so I am sure that didn't happen. The subs can be made to chuff though, no ported sub is immune to chuffing. Chuffing isn't going to hurt your sub, but it just sounds goofy.

Ok my friend all is well. Remember the hallways that were warping when I pushed it that one time. It's coming from them and the frames on the windows the walls are resonating so hard it sounds like it's breaking. These subs are so bad ass that is so fuggin awesome man. I love these sub's. I think I'm going to marry them.

 

[lovinthehd]

Try a little museum putty/blu-tac in/on things that resonate....

 

[Danzilla31]

Try a little museum putty/blu-tac in/on things that resonate....

That's the thing man the bass is so CLEAN. It's not causing the Windows or objects to resonate. It's causing the frame inside the house to resonate. Especially the one on the right. There's a nook there right by it I think it's picking up some extra room gain. I could eq that out. BUT I DON'T WANT TO lol I've never owned subs that can make the very foundation vibrate. Wow this is so cool.

 

[shadyJ]

Even if you boosted external eq sufficiently?

The limiters are hard. You would not be able to bottom them out just from whatever signal you send them.

 

[lovinthehd]

The limiters are hard. You would not be able to bottom them out just from whatever signal you send them.

I think I've read otherwise unless you're saying it's something SVS has implemented particularly for these subs. Hard to believe in any case that it's not possible to overdrive an already eq'd driver...

 

[KEW]

I think I've read otherwise unless you're saying it's something SVS has implemented particularly for these subs. Hard to believe in any case that it's not possible to overdrive an already eq'd driver...

Why is that hard to believe?
SVS knows exactly the behavior of the subwoofer as a system and is applying a limiter that is specifically tuned to that subwoofer. The hard limiter can maintain an exact limit of the strongest signal that will reach the driver regardless of what EQ comes before it.
All it has to do is look as the signal in the digital domain as the last step before the DAC conversion to feed the power amp and, if it is above a certain magnitude for the specific frequency, it gets limited to a level which safely prevents overextending the driver.

 

[shadyJ]

I think I've read otherwise unless you're saying it's something SVS has implemented particularly for these subs. Hard to believe in any case that it's not possible to overdrive an already eq'd driver...

Kurt is correct. The SVS subs are basically impossible to overdrive. The DSP algorithm knows when to limit amplitude increases to protect the driver. If they could bottom out, at least in normal operation, I would have done that during testing, but it never happened. You can feed it a very strong 10 Hz signal, and it is perfectly safe. It might be possible to bottom it out if you have the amp set for 2 port mode when all 3 ports are open, but that is improper use that is specifically warned against in the owner's manual. Many of the new DSP set subs are protected against bottoming out, not just from SVS but nearly all manufacturers. It can't be done. BTW, while this is common on newer subs with DSP chips handling signal processing, somehow Hsu's newer subs are protected against this as well, and they use analog amplifiers. I don't know how they do it, but I can't bottom them out in normal operation. I can bottom out their older subs, however.

 

[Danzilla31]

Kurt is correct. The SVS subs are basically impossible to overdrive. The DSP algorithm knows when to limit amplitude increases to protect the driver. If they could bottom out, at least in normal operation, I would have done that during testing, but it never happened. You can feed it a very strong 10 Hz signal, and it is perfectly safe. It might be possible to bottom it out if you have the amp set for 2 port mode when all 3 ports are open, but that is improper use that is specifically warned against in the owner's manual. Many of the new DSP set subs are protected against bottoming out, not just from SVS but nearly all manufacturers. It can't be done. BTW, while this is common on newer subs with DSP chips handling signal processing, somehow Hsu's newer subs are protected against this as well, and they use analog amplifiers. I don't know how they do it, but I can't bottom them out in normal operation. I can bottom out their older subs, however.

So what your saying buddy is they have a limiter put in there to protect the sub but they don't have one installed in there to protect my house

 

[Danzilla31]

So what your saying buddy is they have a limiter put in there to protect the sub but they don't have one installed in there to protect my house

I'm gonna crack so much plaster this year

 

[KEW]

...somehow Hsu's newer subs are protected against this as well, and they use analog amplifiers. I don't know how they do it, but I can't bottom them out in normal operation. I can bottom out their older subs, however.

From Jman's review of the $150 SUB 1200:

Since the SUB-1200 seemed virtually impervious to deleterious behavior I decided to push it with some of the most demanding blu-rays in my collection. To my utter surprise it held its head high and said "no, I will not falter". Most of the really torturous movies I watched weren't quite as fulfilling as they've been with some other subwoofers in the past, but this 'cheapie' never put a foot wrong. In retrospect I probably should have chosen different test material; gut-wrenching bass is not this subwoofers forte, yet I treated it as though it was. To a certain extent it almost became a quest to see if I could make the SUB-1200 lose composure, but I was ultimately never able to do that. It's almost bullet proof in that regard, and I tip my hat to Dayton Audio because of it.

https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

Obviously, budget contraints do not allow exotic controls in a $150 sub,: yet, somehow, Dayton Audio appears to limit the signal in such a way as to allow the sub to gracefully deal with a signal that is beyond its capability.
I'm sure the digital method allows for more precision so the designer can eek out that extra little bit of performance before the limiter kicks in (if the designer spends the time to fine tune it).
I suspect Hsu has a more advanced system, but maybe not. If there is a simple and effective way to do it at minimal expense, simple is almost always better than complex!
To me, this is the one significant drawback to DIY subs (which is not to say it outweighs the benefits). For commercial subs from mainstream manufacturers, I like the way Tom V of PSA put it (paraphrasing, don't remember exact wording) - "Don't take it as a challenge, but you can't break these subs". I don't think many DIY subs could make that claim. Of course, one solution is to DIY a sub which has capability well beyond what you would ever reasonably use.
Obviously the net cost for Dayton Audio to implement this is not too high, but I suspect the effort of dialing in the parameters or getting a unique amp built to provide the proper limits is only justified when you spread it over hundreds of units. MiniDSP is not too expensive, but I don't think it allows for a master limiter independent and after the typical DSP activities.

I do remember a review of an earlier sub (forgot which) where when the limiter kicks in and it would cause the sub to drop out for a couple of seconds (IIRC - It may have been some other disruption to your enjoyment of sound). and that is what so impresses me about the SUB 1200. I have played the introductory signal to Edge of Tomorrow: Live, Die, Repeat! and it doesn't miss a beat despite the signal being well beyond its capability. As Jman said, it is not as "fulfilling" as a sub which is completely capable of playing that content, but it maintains composure with no sense that a limit is being placed on the playback and allows you to enjoy the sound without interruption! Sometimes ignorance really is bliss!

 

[shadyJ]

From Jman's review of the $150 SUB 1200:

https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

Obviously, budget contraints do not allow exotic controls in a $150 sub,: yet, somehow, Dayton Audio appears to limit the signal in such a way as to allow the sub to gracefully deal with a signal that is beyond its capability.
I'm sure the digital method allows for more precision so the designer can eek out that extra little bit of performance before the limiter kicks in (if the designer spends the time to fine tune it).
I suspect Hsu has a more advanced system, but maybe not. If there is a simple and effective way to do it at minimal expense, simple is almost always better than complex!
To me, this is the one significant drawback to DIY subs (which is not to say it outweighs the benefits). For commercial subs from mainstream manufacturers, I like the way Tom V of PSA put it (paraphrasing, don't remember exact wording) - "Don't take it as a challenge, but you can't break these subs". I don't think many DIY subs could make that claim. Of course, one solution is to DIY a sub which has capability well beyond what you would ever reasonably use.
Obviously the net cost for Dayton Audio to implement this is not too high, but I suspect the effort of dialing in the parameters or getting a unique amp built to provide the proper limits is only justified when you spread it over hundreds of units. MiniDSP is not too expensive, but I don't think it allows for a master limiter independent and after the typical DSP activities.

I do remember a review of an earlier sub (forgot which) where when the limiter kicks in and it would cause the sub to drop out for a couple of seconds (IIRC - It may have been some other disruption to your enjoyment of sound). and that is what so impresses me about the SUB 1200. I have played the introductory signal to Edge of Tomorrow: Live, Die, Repeat! and it doesn't miss a beat despite the signal being well beyond its capability. As Jman said, it is not as "fulfilling" as a sub which is completely capable of playing that content, but it maintains composure with no sense that a limit is being placed on the playback and allows you to enjoy the sound without interruption! Sometimes ignorance really is bliss!

I wouldn't think that the SUB1200 has a sophisticated limiter. What is more likely is that it is soft-bottoming, where the suspension is what limits excursion rather than space for the former. Soft-bottoming can be damaging as well, by putting too much tension on the suspension components over time, but it isn't as loudly obvious as hard bottom where the former slams into the back plate. The Hsu likely has a combination of filters that no input signal is strong enough to over-ride.