SVS PB 3000 VS RYTHMIK FV15HP

everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Curious to know your reasoning for considering one sub over the other to be better for music vs HT, here? I've no experience with either company, but their reputations are both outstanding. Moreover, JTRs gear is considered by many to be a step up from the more widely known ID companies... more on par with Seaton Sound, Deep Sea, and perhaps even Funk.
If a Speaker or Subwoofer is well designed and capable of producing high quality sound, why does it matter whether that sound is "music" or "HT"?
Some depends on the overall performance of the sub, not just how loud and low. Linear response on the upper end is lacking on a few well regarded subs which can make integration more difficult. SVS IMO are extremely over engineered, bullet proof if you will. Rythmik usually has no complaints, but have their issues too (on some models). Just a lot of variables.

I cross my subs higher than most in my theater.

In my two channel, I'm still working it out as the mains seem to sound better full range, amplifier high passed at 20hz. Subs are (Salk built rythmiks) .
 
vader540is

vader540is

Audioholic Intern
Curious to know your reasoning for considering one sub over the other to be better for music vs HT, here? I've no experience with either company, but their reputations are both outstanding. Moreover, JTRs gear is considered by many to be a step up from the more widely known ID companies... more on par with Seaton Sound, Deep Sea, and perhaps even Funk.
If a Speaker or Subwoofer is well designed and capable of producing high quality sound, why does it matter whether that sound is "music" or "HT"?
 
I

Imureh

Audioholic Intern
Curious to know your reasoning for considering one sub over the other to be better for music vs HT, here? I've no experience with either company, but their reputations are both outstanding. Moreover, JTRs gear is considered by many to be a step up from the more widely known ID companies... more on par with Seaton Sound, Deep Sea, and perhaps even Funk.
If a Speaker or Subwoofer is well designed and capable of producing high quality sound, why does it matter whether that sound is "music" or "HT"?
The design goals are different between the two. The JTR subs are raw power and emphasis is on output and TR. It’s not to say that they do poorly with music but with music a faster sub would do better which what the rythmik excel at. The driver stops on a dime due to servo. Many studios use their subs for mixing for this reason.


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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
First, to be clear, I'm not trying to bait you guys.
What I understand you to be talking about @Imureh is effectively the Damping Factor/Transient Response, correct? I understand the theory behind the Servo design and have been highly intrigued, to the extent that I may well buy an Amp/Driver combo from Rythmik to experiment with in my own build.
Regardless, unless I missed something, there is still nothing stated in your post or in @vader540is 's link that would indicate the JTR to be a poor performer in terms of your statement. All I'm looking for is something more than conjecture, please. That's how we all learn and improve, afterall. :)

Best,
R
 
I

Imureh

Audioholic Intern
First, to be clear, I'm not trying to bait you guys.
What I understand you to be talking about @Imureh is effectively the Damping Factor/Transient Response, correct? I understand the theory behind the Servo design and have been highly intrigued, to the extent that I may well buy an Amp/Driver combo from Rythmik to experiment with in my own build.
Regardless, unless I missed something, there is still nothing stated in your post or in @vader540is 's link that would indicate the JTR to be a poor performer in terms of your statement. All I'm looking for is something more than conjecture, please. That's how we all learn and improve, afterall. :)

Best,
R
If you read my post again I said that it does not mean that JTR do poorly with music. You may just want to get each and compare for yourself. I have done so myself few times in different rooms.


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vader540is

vader540is

Audioholic Intern
If you read my post again I said that it does not mean that JTR do poorly with music. You may just want to get each and compare for yourself. I have done so myself few times in different rooms.


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I agree with what you're saying I have no idea how that other guy thought that we said JTR is a poor performer... they are wonderful subs.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
If a Speaker or Subwoofer is well designed and capable of producing high quality sound, why does it matter whether that sound is "music" or "HT"?
I cannot speak to those two subwoofers, because I am not familiar with them.
However, in an effort to justify a differentiation between music vs HT usage, I can say for myself, with any sub that I have setup, I prefer to run my sub hotter for HT (action movie, not music movie) than for music.
I'll follow this with some discussion, but whether this is personal idiosyncrasy, reaction to contrasting production values, or any of many other possibilities, it does establish that I do not want my HT and Music sub to be identical in every way!
The hotter HT setting sounds a bit muddied for most of the music I enjoy, but I could also argue that most music written for the movies is not so sensitive to the extra bass! It doesn't bother me to have that extra bass weight for the Theme to StarWars as it just adds some "epic weight" to it - same for soundtrack for Avengers ... but Melody Gardot or Jaco Pastorius? No thank you!
In my lazy one-setting-fits-all scheme, I decrease the bass setting for music inputs by 1-2dB from where Denon/Audyssey setup would have it. Some music is fine if I left it at 0, but other music is bass heavy at 0dB! It depends on the recording! For music, it is very important to me that the sub never stands out by being over-enthusiastic!
Conversely, I increase the sub level 4-6dB (IIRC) for HT! I don't mind it at all when my subs take the stage and impress me during a movie! It is fun! Of course, the target for a movie cannot be accuracy, because for an explosion that involves concussions and structural failures!
Also, looking for reasons why music and movie objectives might be different, the LFE is an obvious reason. Generally, music is produced under the oversight of the musicians (ideally simply using an engineer they have come to trust to make it good). I don't know, but I might presume that movies have standards and guidelines on appropriate use of the LFE channels and the LFE is more about tactile sensations than (most) bass is for music.
Having said all of this, My Outlaw X13's are the first real* ported subwoofer that I have heard without being a liability for music. I believe that is because the the overall design/quality is not prone to being sloppy and because it has enough tuning options to allow me to adjust to the sound I want.
I can't remember what subs you had previously, but there are many subs at lower prices where you do not have this level of adjustability (unless you add it via tools like XT32 and/or miniDSP). In these lower price ranges, you are often having to decide between compromises that provide better quality and output at frequencies above ~30Hz for music vs tactile feel for HT! If you are not going to use Audyssey or miniDSP, you have to be very careful picking a subwoofer to make sure the compromises are consistent with your objectives.
For me, that means buying a sub for music because I can handle not having the deepest or loudest bottom end in a movie, but I cannot handle having deep bass that is overwhelming while listening to music.
Since you have the X-13 which is nicely capable, I can appreciate that you are familiar with a sub that does both very well... however, I hope you can see how - at least on a budget - the preferred compromises would be different between a music vs HT sub.

* By "real" ported subwoofer, I mean a sub ported to maximize extension/SPL. For example, the Infinity R12 ($200, when on sale)is ported, but it is tuned to play mid-bass efficiently (I would guess the tuning frequency around 38Hz based on FR). I believe Infinity intended this sub for music. This sub would be very much deficient for HT, but makes a wonderful subwoofer for music to use with mains that have 6" woofers. Looking at the FR, I wonder if Harmon/Infinity may be deliberately attenuating the bass to allow some leeway for Room Gain before it gets overbearing - surely they could have tuned it to be flat at 40Hz if they wanted - with Harman/Infinity, I don't think they "accidently screwed up" the FR.
Of course, compared to TV/soundbar speakers, this is a great subwoofer for HT!:p
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
If you read my post again I said that it does not mean that JTR do poorly with music.
I agree with what you're saying I have no idea how that other guy thought that we said JTR is a poor performer... they are wonderful subs.
Ryan never said anything about them performing poorly with music! Here is what he said:
Curious to know your reasoning for considering one sub over the other to be better for music vs HT, here?...
...If a Speaker or Subwoofer is well designed and capable of producing high quality sound, why does it matter whether that sound is "music" or "HT"?
Here is the original post Ryan responded to:
At that price that sub is a great buy. If you are more HT than music I would get the JTR at that close out price. If you are more music then stick with rythmik.
I read that to indicate that the Rythmik is preferred for music. Am I misinterpreting? If so, please clarify!
 
I

Imureh

Audioholic Intern
Ryan never said anything about them performing poorly with music! Here is what he said:


Here is the original post Ryan responded to:

I read that to indicate that the Rythmik is preferred for music. Am I misinterpreting? If so, please clarify!
Yes it is but that does not mean JTR is poor. There are numerous discussions on this topic on AVS forum. Only way for one to know is to compare and listen for themselves


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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
The design goals are different between the two. The JTR subs are raw power and emphasis is on output and TR. It’s not to say that they do poorly with music but with music a faster sub would do better which what the rythmik excel at. The driver stops on a dime due to servo. Many studios use their subs for mixing for this reason.
That just isn't true. JTR's subs are, if anything, 'faster' than Rythmik's subs. Servo mechanism doesn't confer as much advantage in the time domain as you think, if it improves that aspect of subwoofer performance at all.
Here is a group delay measurement of the JTR Cap S2:


And here is a group delay measurement of the Rythmik F18:

The Rythmik sub has about double the level of stored energy throughout most of the subwoofer range. Don't fall for marketing hype.

What is more, the new JTR driver is supposedly a higher-fidelity one than what is used for that above measurement.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Only way for one to know is to compare and listen for themselves
This I do readily agree with! :D

Of course not everybody can get subs from different companies in their home to audition so easily. I sure don't have an extra $10K to tie up in ordering, shipping, and returning various subs. :p Wish I did. But then the Lady would be the next obstacle! :eek:

:cool:
 
T

Timforhifi

Audioholic Intern
What’s very interesting is people don’t Truly understand newer Fv15hp.
All the numbers on data bass and here on Audioholics are of the older version. Older driver and smaller 3.5” ports that even have a different shape.

The newer Fv15hp uses a better driver a twin 4” ports. From 16-25hz the Fv15hp will still have more tr than 1200xs and above 25hit’ll have 2-4 more dB.

Now here is the fun part, spl in room numbers.
In my room Fv15hp

12@101db
16@107db
20@113db
30@120db
50@123db
70@125db

Newer Fv15hp will have less port noise with 1-4db more output than older version.

I like the jtr subs but I did a direct comparison with a cap24000ulf vs fv18 rev2 paper and Rythmik had more output and sounded better. I even had more output at 10hz with fv18. Cap2400 was fun though but made some unpleasant noises at times and wasn’t nice enough looking to justify keeping.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
What’s very interesting is people don’t Truly understand newer Fv15hp.
All the numbers on data bass and here on Audioholics are of the older version. Older driver and smaller 3.5” ports that even have a different shape.

The newer Fv15hp uses a better driver a twin 4” ports. From 16-25hz the Fv15hp will still have more tr than 1200xs and above 25hit’ll have 2-4 more dB.

Now here is the fun part, spl in room numbers.
In my room Fv15hp

12@101db
16@107db
20@113db
30@120db
50@123db
70@125db

Newer Fv15hp will have less port noise with 1-4db more output than older version.

I like the jtr subs but I did a direct comparison with a cap24000ulf vs fv18 rev2 paper and Rythmik had more output and sounded better. I even had more output at 10hz with fv18. Cap2400 was fun though but made some unpleasant noises at times and wasn’t nice enough looking to justify keeping.
It's a bit difficult to believe that the Rythmik would have more output or extension. It has a smaller enclosure, much less powerful amp, and lower excursion driver. Plus, there are are very significant performance differences between the two measured at data-bass.com, way more than simply moving over to a paper cone would ever make up for. Sorry, but your comparison does not add up.
 
T

Timforhifi

Audioholic Intern
Would be much better if we went off room interactions and modes than databass numbers. Not all subs act the same when put in your home.

I’m definitely sure you know that already. The cap2400ulf was missing a bunch of output in mid bass, where fv18 dominates it. Down lower my room gets enormous low frequency gain from being a large room. Still the fv18 equals or beats it lower too.

don’t have to believe me, just learn from my experience. Then decide for yourself

really most of these better subs will get you what you want. Comparing output 1-2 dB here or there is splitting hairs. I recommend people getting multiple smaller subs then two or more huge ones.

I’ve heard a room with 2 near field cap4000ulf and a room with 6 Rythmik Fv15hp. The 6 was better and the room was built and setup so perfect!

I’d even recommend two sb40000 or E15hp2 in most rooms. They’ll get louder then people think setup correctly. The average user that buys these subs never really pushes them to the limits. I’ll ask them or read their posts and the following is said very often. “ man I’m pushing these pb16 so hard my house is about to fall down, and I even saw 114db max on my spl meter.” Or some asks how loud is loud to you? Responds “ I never go over 105db.”

just so many different experiences and I like to hear all of them. 95% of the time one good sub is all we need but we convince ourselves we need every seat to sound great. I’ve asked my wife and 4 kids numerous times does it sound good over there?? They say shut up who cares lol. Now I know they like it but they’re watching a movie and just don’t care as much. We just try to get our families into it like us but it rarely happens, so we post in forums and have friends that care. Lol
 
vader540is

vader540is

Audioholic Intern
What’s very interesting is people don’t Truly understand newer Fv15hp.
All the numbers on data bass and here on Audioholics are of the older version. Older driver and smaller 3.5” ports that even have a different shape.

The newer Fv15hp uses a better driver a twin 4” ports. From 16-25hz the Fv15hp will still have more tr than 1200xs and above 25hit’ll have 2-4 more dB.

Now here is the fun part, spl in room numbers.
In my room Fv15hp

12@101db
16@107db
20@113db
30@120db
50@123db
70@125db

Newer Fv15hp will have less port noise with 1-4db more output than older version.

I like the jtr subs but I did a direct comparison with a cap24000ulf vs fv18 rev2 paper and Rythmik had more output and sounded better. I even had more output at 10hz with fv18. Cap2400 was fun though but made some unpleasant noises at times and wasn’t nice enough looking to justify keeping.
You have any REW graphs to back that up?
 
T

Timforhifi

Audioholic Intern
I knew that would be asked and I’ll look for them when I get a moment. Definitely the age we live in, if you don’t take a picture it never happened right? Lol

just because one driver has a longer throw doesn’t mean it has more output. Driver has to hit its standard start stop movement. That’s what people miss when looking at performance. Rythmik subs will throw fast with yes less excursion than a jtr sub. But it can do almost 2 cycles to 1 on jtr with less ringing and find its zero balance much faster. Servo subs are the real deal.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
I knew that would be asked and I’ll look for them when I get a moment. Definitely the age we live in, if you don’t take a picture it never happened right? Lol

just because one driver has a longer throw doesn’t mean it has more output. Driver has to hit its standard start stop movement. That’s what people miss when looking at performance. Rythmik subs will throw fast with yes less excursion than a jtr sub. But it can do almost 2 cycles to 1 on jtr with less ringing and find its zero balance much faster. Servo subs are the real deal.
If Rythmiks had less ringing, it would be evident in group delay graphs, but they just don't have any advantage:

vs.

Those are the group delay graphs of the subs under discussion, and they are basically the same.

Contrary to your claims, the data says that the FV18 just isn't quite on the same level as the Captivator 2400ULF, in pretty much every metric. Nor should it expected to be, since it costs $1k less.
 
T

Timforhifi

Audioholic Intern
Definitely need to stop using data bass as the end all be all. Good resource to look at though.
 

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