SVS PB-1000 & SB-1000 Powered Subwoofers Preview

[3db]

I didn't have a chance to measure or run Audyssey -- I'm not even sure I had enough hours on it to qualify as fully broken in -- but I would say it's pretty solid in the low-mid 20's.

What I might end up doing is hooking it up again though. Turns out it didn't seem to like The Games scene in Tron; it was making a droning sound instead of anything resembling bass. After just a few minutes I had to stop the movie because it wasn't pleasant. That was the only scene the PB1000 didn't like, but I know the disk is fine because the sub I'm looking at now handled the same material just fine.

Any updates Jim? Just curious to see how the ported box is working. I'm wondering if anti up to the Outlaw EX-1 for additional 200 is worth it.

 

[theJman]

Any updates Jim? Just curious to see how the ported box is working. I'm wondering if anti up to the Outlaw EX-1 for additional 200 is worth it.

Actually, I haven't hooked it back up. There was another unit I was evaluating at the time, and one that was supposed to be right behind it. The first one I have my rough draft for, so I slid it to the side. The other one I need XLR for but my cables -- which were supposed to be delivered today -- won't come until Monday instead, so I do have a little extra time. What I'll do is hook the PB1000 back up and run it for a while this weekend, then I'll post back with a bit more detail.

I convinced a buddy of mine to pickup an EX during the Black Friday sale, so I know what that thing can do, and while my initial impression is the PB1000 seems like a good value it's not capable of doing what the EX can. How large is your room? That may ultimately become a deciding factor.

 

[3db]

The basement is U shaped. The listening area is in one leg of the U, 12' x 10' but the back of the room extends an additional 20' back from the couch to the back wall and the additional width of the bottom of the U extends out an additional 15'. Trying to figue out how to attach pics of my room in this thread to clarify my description.

 

[theJman]

The basement is U shaped. The listening area is in one leg of the U, 12' x 10' but the back of the room extends an additional 20' back from the couch to the back wall and the additional width of the bottom of the U extends out an additional 15'.

Not sure I have the correct picture in my head, but if I do that sounds like a sizable space to fill. Unless I miss my guess a single PB1000 might not do the trick for you. Perhaps Ed will chime in, but it does sound like you may need something a bit larger.

 

[3db]

If you can check out the attached pictures (hopefully they are working) you will get an idea what I'm talking about. The sub is currently located right behind the couch in the picture. It works best at that location (did the bass crawl thing). I just have to pressurize the little area (first pic) .

 

[theJman]

I'm not seeing any pictures or links -- so I don't know what your area looks like -- but you did write something I felt needed to be clarified...

I just have to pressurize the little area (first pic) .

Unfortunately, that's not how a subwoofer works. To an extent speakers can be undersized and still work because you can place them close and point them directly at you which helps mitigate the fact they aren't sufficient. A sub, on the other hand, "sees" your entire space and wants to pressurize it, regardless of how large or small the viewing area is. There's no way around that I'm afraid, and if you don't account for that fact when sizing a sub you'll end up with bad results.

 

[3db]

View attachment 11101View attachment 11102View attachment 11103

Did this work?

 

[bikemig]

I for one am upset about these, they may make it difficult for me to hang onto my money.

I'm having the same problem . . .

 

[theJman]

View attachment 11101View attachment 11102View attachment 11103

Did this work?

Yup, those pictures I see. They appear to be the ones you posted previously though, which still make it difficult for me to get the right context, but I have the general idea.

The first thing I notice is the surrounds, which are probably too small for that amount of space. However, you've overcome the issue by pointing them directly at the listeners. That's a great idea, and sounds very familiar to me. The subwoofer is a different story...

The sub is going to try and fill all the way to that back wall for sure, and if the opening on the side is large enough it will also flow into that area as well. That's going to create an issue when it comes to sizing; you'll need one pretty powerful sub to fill it, or multiple smaller ones. Also, is your sofa in the center of the room? If so it presents another challenge; that location will more then likely create a bass null -- a trough if you will -- right where your couch sits, something which can not be fixed with any type of EQ (Audyssey or otherwise). The only way to cure a true room null is with a different placement, for the couch and/or subwoofer. Experimentation is really the only method available when it comes to determining what works best in that case.

 

[3db]

Thanks for the comments . Its difficult to judge scale from these pics. The sofa is 2/5 towards front, 3/5 towards the back so its not in the middle. I made sure of not making that mistake. I'm curious to see why you think the surrounds are too small. They maybe sitting back horizontal from the couch, a total of 2 feet which isn't a big distance. They also incorporate the same driver units as my towers. I'm only curious..not defensive so don't hold back.

About the sub location.. It plays the most even and loudest bass response at that location even though its aimed at the larger of the room openings. Its an odd shaped room for sure. It plays strong enough to make the floors vibrate upstairs..freaking out my wife I might add.

View attachment 11104

 

[theJman]

I'm curious to see why you think the surrounds are too small. They maybe sitting back horizontal from the couch, a total of 2 feet which isn't a big distance. They also incorporate the same driver units as my towers. I'm only curious..not defensive so don't hold back.

Big spaces require big speakers, and with a room that size you seemed to be a good candidate for towers all around. But similar to the room dimensions those pictures may not accurately portray the size of the surrounds, so perhaps they aren't as small as appearances indicate.

That mounting system certainly looks sturdy. If you ever want to do pull ups while watching TV you're all set...

About the sub location.. It plays the most even and loudest bass response at that location even though its aimed at the larger of the room openings. Its an odd shaped room for sure. It plays strong enough to make the floors vibrate upstairs..freaking out my wife I might add.

If that's the case then maybe you should try a PB1000. It is a pretty solid performer.

 

[Jor4President]

The basement is U shaped. The listening area is in one leg of the U, 12' x 10' but the back of the room extends an additional 20' back from the couch to the back wall and the additional width of the bottom of the U extends out an additional 15'.

I also think you will need to calculate for the entire room. If I understand correctly it looks like your room consists of 2 legs of 12'x10' and the 'bottom of the U' which is 20'x15' which would make the total area 540 ft^2. So if your ceiling is 6ft (probably higher) your room is at least 3240 ft^3 which will easily make it a Large sized room in the audioholics protocol.

If that's the case then maybe you should try a PB1000. It is a pretty solid performer.

Due to its considerably larger enclosure and ported design, the PB-1000 outperforms the SB12-NSD at every test frequency for CEA-2010 distortion-limited output, particularly below 40 Hz. The advantage at 31.5 Hz is 4 dB (60% more output), at 25 Hz is 7 dB (2.3X more output) and at 20 Hz is 9 dB (2.8X more output).

If the above information is indeed correct the PB-1000 should either just get the Bassholic Large rating or just miss it. The SB12-NSD gets certified Medium and the difference between the medium and large rating is +6 dB. The PB-1000 (compared to the SB12-NSD) has +7dB more output @ 25Hz but 'only' +4dB @ 31.5Hz and probably less above that. So between 31.5Hz and 64Hz it will likely not have the preffered output for a Large sized room.

The PB-1000 might do for you. If you want to be 'safe' or listen at high volume levels I'd go for something bigger. You can also email SVS support with your room exact room size and lay out. Ed has been very helpful to me. If you live in the US I'd buy it without a second thought. Remember SVS a 45day trail and a 1-year trade up policy for full credit toward a bigger sub. (provided it's in like new condition with original box etc)


Personally I'm very happy as I have a Medium sized room. The thought of that much more output over the SB12-NSD for less money makes me all giddy with excitement.



ps. Good idea on the ceiling mount 3db. I might copy that in the future when the surrounds grow bigger.

 

[3db]

I finally got around to drawing my HT room using Microsoft Visio.....and saved as a jpeg. The ceiling is a drop tile ceiling which I would say is between 6' and 7' tall. Forgot to measure that.

View attachment 11132

 

[3db]

I sent an email with the drawing attached to Sonicboom which is Canadian distributor of SVS subs asking them if the PB1000 could hit 20 Hz in my room at 100db. Here is there response......

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]--> </m:defjc></m:rmargin></m:lmargin></m:dispdef></m:smallfrac>In that size room, expect well over 100 dB output at 20 Hz.
<m:smallfrac m:val="off"><m:dispdef><m:lmargin m:val="0"><m:rmargin m:val="0"><m:defjc m:val="centerGroup">The PB-1000 is rated for 103 dB RMS @ 20 Hz via CEA-2010 outdoors at 2 meters ground plane.
Going from ground plane to 1/8th space with two near field boundaries will in theory add 6 dB per boundary, but let's be conservative and call it 4 dB per boundary.


The room will also exhibit at least some room gain (a low-end augmentation of the bass due to conversion from a modal response to a pressure response) and in that size space a conservative estimate would be 4 dB of room gain at 20 Hz.

If the RS SPL meter is being used to monitor peak SPL, be aware that it will typically read 3-4 dB low on DVD LFE bass peaks (which are generally resident in the 25-35 Hz range) since it has a C-weighted filter.



thanks,

Mason </m:defjc></m:rmargin></m:lmargin></m:dispdef></m:smallfrac>

 

[Jor4President]

Sounds about right except that in your setup the subwoofer is in quarter space. So you will only get +6db for 1 boundary but on the other hand your listening position is only about 2 meters so you have no loss from distance. At 20Hz it will do fine. I'm just pointing out that the Bassholic Large rating for requires > / = 115 dB at the listening position for 31.5Hz to 63Hz. I think the PB-1000 will do above 110dB but below 115dB for 31.5Hz to 63Hz . Will that matter much? I don't know.. Perhaps the stairs might have some negative effect on room pressure? Or maybe the PB-1000 will do more than just fine as your room is <4000 ft^3. I have to say this is all speculation on my part. Someone who has actually put all this theory to practice will be able to tell more about what is required for tactile feedback. The first advise I got on this very question was: 'When in doubt go bigger'.

 

[3db]

After reading your post, this question springs to mind? Is midrange/treble at 100db as loud as bass is at 100db as far as perception goes? Humans are more acute to frequencies in the midrange than bass. That is why I asked this question. I have a hard time watching movies that peak at 95 db as I find that too loud already. This perceived "loudness" may dictate if I go bigger or not.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

After reading your post, this question springs to mind? Is midrange/treble at 100db as loud as bass is at 100db as far as perception goes? Humans are more acute to frequencies in the midrange than bass. That is why I asked this question. I have a hard time watching movies that peak at 95 db as I find that too loud already. This perceived "loudness" may dictate if I go bigger or not.

Perception depends on playback levels. You can google "loudness curves" for examples. Technology like Audyssey compensates for this by setting reference level, EQing for linear response at reference (SVS is astonishing linear, but room response will be tailored by MultEQ), and then applying loudness curve correction at volumes below reference (DynamicEQ).

Short version, at lower levels, bass frequencies need to be "louder".

 

[3db]

I want to know if I'm interpreting the graph correctly... if I look at the Fletcher-Munson curve .. I hear a 1KHz signal at 80db, I would have to make it 120db to perceive the same loudness at 20Hz?

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

I want to know if I'm interpreting the graph correctly... if I look at the Fletcher-Munson curve .. I hear a 1KHz signal at 80db, I would have to make it 120db to perceive the same loudness at 20Hz?

Yes, which is why reference level listening (75 or 85db depending on whose number you use) requires subwoofer output in the triple digits.

 

[Jor4President]

The standard calibration "Reference Level" (RL) is 75dB at the listening position. The goal is to ensure the system calibrated at 75dB can hit clean 105 dB peaks for each of the speaker channels and 115 dB peaks for the LFE channel.

It is much more common for A/V enthusiasts to listen between -15 to -10db from reference.

From the Audioholics Subwoofer Room Size Rating Protocol article.


I wouldn't worry about the perceived difference between highs and lows. The people mixing the source material are the ones that take that into account. It should only be an issue if you always turn up the LFE channel more after you have calibrated all channels properly. If you play with all your channels balanced and your other channels peak at 95dB, your LFE channel would need to be able to peak somewhere around 108dB.

I personally would like to know what the effect of the stairs would be concerning the pressure in your room. If the opening can be neglected (therefore making your room around 3800 ft^3) the PB-1000 will do (well) for your needs. Perhaps someone else can weigh in on this.