Surround Speakers

[GuitarPicker]

I'm currently using a Marantz SR7013 with 5.1.4 with 2 HSU subs and 1 RSL 12 sub. All my speakres are Bowers and Wilkins except for my surrounds which are old BOSE 601's that I've had for years. I'm wanting to upgrade my surrounds and use B&W. I've looked at matching 603 S2 floor standing, 606 S2 and 707 S2 bookshelf speakers. I'm thinking the asthetics of the book shelf on speaker stands would look good. I also think the 707 S2 would have mopre clarity but then again they are only surrounds but might sound good in all channel stereo. Looking for recommendations on what I should consider purchasing.

 

[GuitarPicker]

Maybe I'd be better off asking someone at Best Buy. Where is Gene DellaSala when you need him or do I have to pay a $100 an hour?

 

[Eppie]

Best Buy will recommend the speaker with the biggest profit margin.

B&W do not get reviewed here often. A quick search revealed that the 606 S2 has a bright response (elevated treble) and the 707 S2 has a scooped response (elevated bass and treble). I would not recommend those unless you prefer that type of sound and are really set on getting B&W. If you want a neutral sounding speaker, ask for recommendations in a given price range. If you're set on B&W, I would recommend that you try and demo in store first if possible.

 

[GuitarPicker]

Curious as to why Bowers and Wilkins does not get reviewed here that much? They are really great speakers from entry level to $42,000 a pair. The reference to Best Buy was just a jab as nobody after 80 something views had any knowledge or any recommendations. I would have to travel over 2 hours to a larger city to demo speakers and for me it's not worth the hassle and the temptation to go down that rabbit hole. I know Audioholics did an article on the B&W 700 S3 series speakers back in March 2024 and received a great review. After playing music for 40 years I know a little about sound and have done my research. I was thinking maybe somebody had better knowledge than me but that was wishful thinking.

 

[Eppie]

They do make some good speakers but a common issue is that when measured they can exhibit a very low impedance at certain frequencies and the phase angles are not as good as other makes. This makes them hard to drive to high volumes unless you have an amp that can handle low impedances. If the stores are too far away then finding measurements is an important consideration. The brightness of the 606 was noted by Andrew Robinson and there were similar comments on the 707 on ASR. That may not be that big of an issue if you are using them for surrounds. I would expect them to sound quite different from your old 601's.

 

[TLS Guy]

Curious as to why Bowers and Wilkins does not get reviewed here that much? They are really great speakers from entry level to $42,000 a pair. The reference to Best Buy was just a jab as nobody after 80 something views had any knowledge or any recommendations. I would have to travel over 2 hours to a larger city to demo speakers and for me it's not worth the hassle and the temptation to go down that rabbit hole. I know Audioholics did an article on the B&W 700 S3 series speakers back in March 2024 and received a great review. After playing music for 40 years I know a little about sound and have done my research. I was thinking maybe somebody had better knowledge than me but that was wishful thinking.

Like a lot of speaker manufacturers B & W speakers have been a mixed bag. Some have sounded good and measured well, and some frankly awful. The biggest issue is poor crossover design with impedance drops and highly negative phase angles. This has meant that some of their speakers have required amplifiers with power supplies normally found on welding units. They have brought death to many a receiver.

The other issue is that in many speakers they drove those yellow kevlar cones well up into their break up mode giving a peaked response and made them beam like crazy, and also making the off axis response not match the axis response.

 

[GuitarPicker]

Bowers and Wilkins seems to get the same treatment as Bose. Have you listened to B&W speakers or are your opinions based on articles written by someone who may be influenced. I actually traveled to demo the B&W before I purchased and they definitely sounded better to me without a doubt. Are there better speakers out there? Sure but at the price point I was willing to spend there was no doubt which ones I was bringing home. My Marantz drives these hard and I hardly ever get the volume half way without rattling the walls and windows. I mainly listen to TV and movies in my main listening area and dolby atmos movies feel like you are in the middle of the action. I have a dedicated room for music with a McIntosh receiver and a Dynaco ST70 with a Dynaco PAS3 pre amp. I have considered purchasing an Emotiva amp but would really like to test drive one first. I've even thought about buying another set of towers and putting the B&W as surrounds. If you were in the $1200-1500 range of speakers which one would you recommend based off what you've actually heard in person.

 

[Golfx]

You might try posting questions on the British AVforums. They have a patriotic bias for their speakers. This group is pretty much into measurements.

 

[everettT]

Curious as to why Bowers and Wilkins does not get reviewed here that much? They are really great speakers from entry level to $42,000 a pair. The reference to Best Buy was just a jab as nobody after 80 something views had any knowledge or any recommendations. I would have to travel over 2 hours to a larger city to demo speakers and for me it's not worth the hassle and the temptation to go down that rabbit hole. I know Audioholics did an article on the B&W 700 S3 series speakers back in March 2024 and received a great review. After playing music for 40 years I know a little about sound and have done my research. I was thinking maybe somebody had better knowledge than me but that was wishful thinking.

The 600 series is overpriced and messy, it's been that way since 1998. Their famous batwing response, low impedence with sharp phase angle in the powerband, and its throughout their lines. There have been some good 800 series here and there, but I wouldn't pay for their lower lines. Just look at their 607 anniversary addition, nothing and I mean nothing, is good about it. I've owned their speakers, wouldn't again.

Bowers & Wilkins 607 S2 Anniversary Edition Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the B&W 607 S2 Anniversary Edition. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $700 through their various dealers. The 607 S2 comes in different color. My same was in black: Disappointing to see no attempt at directivity control with a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[GuitarPicker]

You might try posting questions on the British AVforums. They has a patriotic bias for their speakers. This group is pretty much into measurements.

Well it's my ears and the context of my system is what's most important not measurements.

Some pitfalls of measurements:
- Many speakers have no detailed measurements, does that mean that they are bad performers and should be discounted?
- Measurements are undertaken by many bodies/parties. They are not all necessarily accurate or consistent in their approach. One party may measure a speaker and show a +3db peak at 1kHz another may show a trough at 1kHz, which is right?
- Many people do not understand measurements enough to interpret them. This is not meant as an insult, even trained acousticians can make mistakes and misread complex measurements. I get many questions concerning Troels measurements - unfortunately, most of the time people have misunderstood what the measurements are actually saying.
- Just because 2 speakers measure the same on a certain parameter it does NOT mean they will sound the same. Two speakers that have a F3 of 37Hz will not necessarily have the same bass characteristics/performance.
- The room/speaker interaction is often more important/dominant than the speaker's measured performance from a 3rd party. For example, a speaker may have a lift of 3db from 4-7kHz (therefore you discount it), however, your room may be heavily damped and causing a 5dB reduction from 4-7Hz. A perfectly flat speaker may not sound best in your room.

 

[GuitarPicker]

The 600 series is overpriced and messy, it's been that way since 1998. Their famous batwing response, low impedence with sharp phase angle in the powerband, and its throughout their lines. There have been some good 800 series here and there, but I wouldn't pay for their lower lines. Just look at their 607 anniversary addition, nothing and I mean nothing, is good about it. I've owned their speakers, wouldn't again.

Bowers & Wilkins 607 S2 Anniversary Edition Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the B&W 607 S2 Anniversary Edition. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $700 through their various dealers. The 607 S2 comes in different color. My same was in black: Disappointing to see no attempt at directivity control with a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Love mine and they sound excellent to me. The best speakers I've ever heard were some massive JBL's that came out of a Carmike Cinema that had 12" woofers and horn on top that were huge. Driven by a 5amp home made tube amp and sounded like the artist was right there in person.

 

[Golfx]

Well it's my ears and the context of my system is what's most important not measurements.

Some pitfalls of measurements:
- Many speakers have no detailed measurements, does that mean that they are bad performers and should be discounted?
- Measurements are undertaken by many bodies/parties. They are not all necessarily accurate or consistent in their approach. One party may measure a speaker and show a +3db peak at 1kHz another may show a trough at 1kHz, which is right?
- Many people do not understand measurements enough to interpret them. This is not meant as an insult, even trained acousticians can make mistakes and misread complex measurements. I get many questions concerning Troels measurements - unfortunately, most of the time people have misunderstood what the measurements are actually saying.
- Just because 2 speakers measure the same on a certain parameter it does NOT mean they will sound the same. Two speakers that have a F3 of 37Hz will not necessarily have the same bass characteristics/performance.
- The room/speaker interaction is often more important/dominant than the speaker's measured performance from a 3rd party. For example, a speaker may have a lift of 3db from 4-7kHz (therefore you discount it), however, your room may be heavily damped and causing a 5dB reduction from 4-7Hz. A perfectly flat speaker may not sound best in your room.

Your counter explanations are full of “math” analogies. I use math analogies to narrow my purchase choices. Especially when those math analogies are read by trained reviewers I trust.

In your world all speakers are judged—just by you. Which is ok because only you purchased them. But you are now trying to influence others to be more like you.

I was simply pointing out that AVforums likes B&W speakers. This website‘s members prefer measurements. AVforums have many members, even some of their moderators, who scorn us measurement people.
Preferring, like you, to only judge speakers by listening to those speakers. Which narrows their pool of potential speakers to local retailers they can visit. Even then you are susceptible to sighted bias and marketing bias and how they may be EQed. So I use math to forewarn me of bias and to assist with listening to speakers.

 

[Swerd]

Well it's my ears and the context of my system is what's most important not measurements.

Some pitfalls of measurements:
- Many speakers have no detailed measurements, does that mean that they are bad performers and should be discounted?
- Measurements are undertaken by many bodies/parties. They are not all necessarily accurate or consistent in their approach. One party may measure a speaker and show a +3db peak at 1kHz another may show a trough at 1kHz, which is right?
- Many people do not understand measurements enough to interpret them. This is not meant as an insult, even trained acousticians can make mistakes and misread complex measurements. I get many questions concerning Troels measurements - unfortunately, most of the time people have misunderstood what the measurements are actually saying.
- Just because 2 speakers measure the same on a certain parameter it does NOT mean they will sound the same. Two speakers that have a F3 of 37Hz will not necessarily have the same bass characteristics/performance.
- The room/speaker interaction is often more important/dominant than the speaker's measured performance from a 3rd party. For example, a speaker may have a lift of 3db from 4-7kHz (therefore you discount it), however, your room may be heavily damped and causing a 5dB reduction from 4-7Hz. A perfectly flat speaker may not sound best in your room.

Although I disagree with much of what you said, you are not entirely wrong. Your conclusions, however, are useless to any reader here. Hence the dreaded red X rating.

I've heard some B&W models and I've also seen those reviews that provide measurements of acoustic performance. I don't like the B&W sound qualities – that's my preference. But those measurements are text book examples of a poorly designed but expensive loud speakers.

You have a strong personal preference for B&W speakers. I'm fine if you leave it at that. When you go beyond that, many others will disagree with you.

 

[Eppie]

@GuitarPicker You mentioned the 707 S3 series, but that was not a review but a demo preview with no measurements. We prefer to wait for someone like James Larson (ShadyJ) to do some actual measurements and critical listening. The 707 S3 is an improvement over the S2, but it appears to exhibit the same brightness as the 600 series. Sound Stage Network uses the NRC anechoic chamber in Canada and has been publishing measurements for years,
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...ilkins-705-s3-loudspeaker&catid=77&Itemid=153

Impedance is 4 or 5 ohms so you want a robust amplifier to drive these. If you happen to like the lifted treble that the 600 and 700 series exhibit, then the 705 S3 would be in your upper price range. It's just not a speaker that members here would generally recommend as most tend to prefer a speaker that is more neutral and behaves better electrically.

The BMR Monitor from Philharmonic Audio is $1,800 (non-curved) and is an excellent bookshelf. Many use these as main speakers and they would make great surrounds. Currently on back order but more will be coming. Curved models are $2,200. For a less expensive surround, their Ceramic Mini at $850 is a bargain. Good for home theatre surrounds but as you mentioned maybe using all channel stereo sometimes, you may want a beefier surround speaker.

In your price range?

• KEF Q Concerto Meta
• Revel M16
• Ascend Acoustics Sierra series
• Focal Vestia N°1
• Sonus Faber Lumina II

 

[Mikado463]

Although I disagree with much of what you said, you are not entirely wrong. Your conclusions, however, are useless to any reader here. Hence the dreaded red X rating.

I've both heard some B&W models and I've seen those reviews that provide measurements of acoustic performance. I don't like the B&W sound qualities – that's my preference. But the measurements are a text book example of a poorly designed but expensive loud speaker.

You have a strong personal preference for B&W speakers. I'm fine if you leave it at that. When you go beyond that, many others will disagree with you.

Agreed, IMO, a B&W fanboy looking for encouragement ...........