Sub to compliment powered monitors - 600-700 dollar range.

[woensl.itis]

Hello all,

I am looking for a powered sub that is going to last me for use with some powered monitors I plan on getting in the near future. My budget is 600-700 bux, though if persuaded to, I could go higher. I don't want to find out in 2 years that my sub is insufficient and I'm gonna have to dish out another grand to get the right one.

My room is about 12x13 and 15x15 is about as big as I'll ever expect my studio to be. I'm planning on getting pretty good monitors (mb spending in the 800-1200 per pair range on them). I need the sub to do well in the low range. IDC abour above 60 Hz. Hopefully I won't have to care about above 40 Hz.
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I need to buy a pair of powered monitors so I can get producing.
My budget is 800-1200 bux.

My room is approx. 13x12 right now and I don't see my studio ever getting bigger than 15x15.

I plan on producing mostly jazz and electronic music.

DefTech is a company I'd be particularly interested in, as I might be able to g et a discount through one of my friends.

So, help me out guys. Can you point me in the right direction? We can go from there. Sorry, I know I'm asking for a lot.

 

[j_garcia]

SVS SB12NSD. Sealed, small-ish, should be plenty of output for that room. A step down in size and price would be the SB-1000.

Rythmik Audio LV12R might give a good blend of clean and output being servo and vented. Would recommend the F12, but it is about another $200 if that isn't out of the question. Either should be plenty for that room.

You mean "do well" as in lots of extension or as in "clean"?

 

[woensl.itis]

SVS SB12NSD. Sealed, small-ish, should be plenty of output for that room. A step down in size and price would be the SB-1000.

Rythmik Audio LV12R might give a good blend of clean and output being servo and vented. Would recommend the F12, but it is about another $200 if that isn't out of the question. Either should be plenty for that room.

You mean "do well" as in lots of extension or as in "clean"?

Well extension to 20Hz is pretty much a must. But I would also like plenty of clean. I'm really just hoping for the best combination. I will be producing some electronic music, which can be quite bass heavy. I added the post from the other thread. Trying to combine them. And I am willing to bend on my budget if I can be persuaded that it's a good investment. An extra 200 bux for a sub that's going to last me years and years is a good deal IMO.

I had actually looked at the Sb12NSD. Right now I have the DSWPro 660 that I got with the RTiA3's. I'm happy with it, but I don't think it is going to meet my production needs. I got rid of the RTi's.
Also, does deftech make good subs or powered monitors? I might be able to go through a friend for a good deal.

 

[ski2xblack]

Def Tech makes enjoyable recreational speakers, but I would choose something like JBL LSR series monitors, or something similar, to go with one of the suggested subs.

 

[woensl.itis]

Def Tech makes enjoyable recreational speakers, but I would choose something like JBL LSR series monitors, or something similar, to go with one of the suggested subs.

So I should kinda cross DefTech off the list as having what I'm looking for for my production needs?
I'm already getting a pair of bookshelves or towers for recreational use.

 

[shadyJ]

If you have room for some sizable subs, the subs I would be looking at is the Power Sound Audio XV15 and Hsu Research VTF3 mk4. The XV15 is $800 and the VTF3 is $770. Both are very powerful, very clean, and dig down to 16 hz so you could mix some very deep tones into your tunes and hear what is happening. They are big subs though, but you are not going to get real 20 hz sound from a small sub. These subs will kill with heavy duty bass music like drum'n'bass, techno, dubstep, electro, and so on

As for Deftech, as far as I know they do not make powered monitors, and the only sub they make that really digs down to 20 hz is the Trinity, which is $3k. I wouldn't want anything less than a Subercube Reference from Deftech, and that is something like $1500 if I remember right.

As for powered monitors, in your budget range, I would be looking at the JBL LSR4326 with its room compensation EQ. Not many active monitors have room correction EQ, but this is important for getting a flat frequency response at your listening position to mix accurately.

 

[woensl.itis]

I can make room for the sub. Sub won't be TOO big for the room size though, right (in terms of output)?

TBH I'll probably end up going with one of those subs. You da man!

From what you say, it would seem deftech is a lil pricey. Unless they made stuff geared especially for production, I'm not gonna buy it. Better stuff for what I want to do seems to be the reality here.

So, as long as everything works out, it looks like we have just to focus on the monitors now.
I'll check into those JBL's when i get home.

This is probably a REALLY stupid question, but do i have to worry about the sub and the monitors I get being timbre matched?

 

[j_garcia]

I recommended the sealed subs because they tend toward the "clean" end of things. Not to say that the vented subs aren't solid performers, but for strictly music, I prefer a sealed sub and I do listen to a fair amount of electronic music. In a smaller room there isn't much benefit for a larger sub IMO, however you could pretty much use them in any room too. PSA also offers the XS15, a sealed version of the XV15. There is no timbre match between a sub and the mains as they should not overlap when crossed over properly, and essentially a good sub is a good sub and can be mated with any speakers.

 

[woensl.itis]

Okay so the subs on the table right now are:

SVS SB12NSD
PSA XV15
PSA SV15
HSU Research VTF3 mk4


I am willing to dish out the extra 200 bux if it's worth it. The monitors I may replace later, but i really want a killin' sub.

 

[shadyJ]

I can make room for the sub. Sub won't be TOO big for the room size though, right (in terms of output)?

This is probably a REALLY stupid question, but do i have to worry about the sub and the monitors I get being timbre matched?

There aren't any subs that are too big for a room, only too small. If the bass is too much, you can always turn it down. As for sealed vs ported, everything else being equal, sealed can sound cleaner, because ports can add greater group delay to the sound. However, I have read that as long as the group delay is kept under 30 milliseconds, it isn't a problem. The Hsu and PSA are very unlikely to have group delay issues. The XS15 would be a great sub though, it will certainly have less group delay than the XV15 but at the cost of low frequency output.

The XS15 depends on room gain for a flat frequency response, but room gain is different for every room. Small rooms will boost deep frequencies more than large ones. The XV15 doesn't depend on the room for deep bass output, in fact, the room can make its deep bass sound exaggerated without EQing. The Hsu VTF3 can be run in both sealed and ported modes, and it also has a Q control which can adjust the low frequency roll off to match your room gain for a flat frequency response.

Also I would throw out the SB12 consideration in the face of the PSA and Hsu subs. It will have far less output than the XS15, XV15, or VTF3. You can compare it directly to the XV15 here, and from 50 hz on down the XV15 is a steady 9 dB more powerful than the SB12, so buying a XV15 is like buying two and a half SB12s. You would likely find similar performance differences with the XS15 and VTF3 as well.

 

[Steve81]

However, I have read that as long as the group delay is kept under 30 milliseconds, it isn't a problem.

FWIW, as far as I'm aware, the generally accepted threshold of audibility for group delay is in the area of 1 to 1.5 cycles (though the area isn't well researched). Consequently, 30ms wouldn't be a big deal at 20Hz, but at 80Hz, it could be quite problematic.

Edit:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/powered-subwoofer-testing-outline-and-procedures-overview/powered-subwoofer-testing-the-powered-subwoofer-tests

There is some subjective opinion to how much delay is acceptable or audible in the bass range and this also varies with frequency. The lower and longer wavelength that the frequency is, the more delay is held to be acceptable generally. It is usually said that as long as group delay is below 1 cycle, or sometimes 1.5 cycles it should not be of concern or easily detectable. In the above chart the blue line indicates 1 cycle and the red line indicates 1.5 cycles.

Also I would throw out the SB12 consideration in the face of the PSA and Hsu subs. It will have far less output than the XS15, XV15, or VTF3.

Indeed; the SB12 isn't to shabby if you need the small form factor, but if you can accommodate something larger, you'll get a lot more clean output capability from one of those options.

 

[woensl.itis]

Looks like I definitely want to go with something sealed if I'm using it for production then, huh? The HSU has 2 modes, which is good, except that I would only want to use the one that provided the most accuracy? Or am I reading it wrong.
How does the VTF3 compare to the SV15? All I am reading about the VTF3 is that it's outstanding.

I don't care about size. Also consider, though, that I don't need HUGE volume as much as huge accuracy, even at low volumes.

 

[j_garcia]

I listed the SB12 first simply because it came in right around the budget. The others are just over, but I think you're on the right track with them. I owned a VTF-2 previously and the Variable Tuning Frequency deal really does work - my room was far too big for it though. I've also heard a VTF-3 Mk2 in a semi-treated room and it was an excellent sub. You won't go wrong with either, but you're also talking about 12" vs 15". You'd have to likely step up to the VTF-15H to match the XV15.

 

[SJTrance]

I have an HSU VTF3 MK3 (the previous version) and it's definitely a great sub for the electronic music that I listen to... it's also couch shaking for low frequency movie scenes. One of the good things about this sub is that you can tune the frequency by messing with the ports and the settings on the sub. So, you can really get different sound from it. The guys at Hsu help out with what you want to set up the sub for.

 

[woensl.itis]

So will upgrading to a 15" be my next step? I would really like to avoid as many next steps as possible. I would definitely dish out the extra 100 bux for the kind of boost in performance they both appear to achieve. The 15H has the same features as the VTF3, right? It's only 80 bucks more than the XV15. No biggie if it's worth it. Am I right though, in saying that the XV15 looks like it might be a little cleaner? I didn't really get a final consensus on whether the porting or venting would make a difference.

Tough decision.

BTW you have all been extremely helpful, so far.

 

[shadyJ]

How does the VTF3 compare to the SV15?

You can get a rough idea of how the VTF3 would compare to the XV15 from data-bass.com if you look at the measurements of the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX. The Outlaw sub is based on an older version of the VTF3, the mk2. The cabinet size and amplifier power are the same, and the driver is similar, but the ports in the VTF3 are larger and longer, so it will have somewhat better deep bass performance, but mostly it will be similar. How the XV15 compares to the LFM-1 EX depends on what mode you run the EX in, and the same would be true for the VTF3. If you run the EX in 1 port mode, it matches the deep bass output of the XV15 but does give up some mid bass output to the XV15. In 2 ports mode, the Outlaw matches most of the XV15's mid bass output, but gives up output below 20 hz, so basically the XV15 has the output strengths of both of the Outlaw's modes. The VTF3 ought to be roughly the same except with stronger deep bass performance.

 

[shadyJ]

So will upgrading to a 15" be my next step? I would really like to avoid as many next steps as possible. I would definitely dish out the extra 100 bux for the kind of boost in performance they both appear to achieve. The 15H has the same features as the VTF3, right? It's only 80 bucks more than the XV15. No biggie if it's worth it. Am I right though, in saying that the XV15 looks like it might be a little cleaner? I didn't really get a final consensus on whether the porting or venting would make a difference.

The VTF15h is more like $200 more than the XV15, because shipping is $140 on it, whereas shipping is built into the price of the XV15. The VTF15h is likely more powerful, but it is a large sub. A VTF15h in a 12x13 room would be pretty nuts, but fun.

One thing I would add, the VTF15h was found not to be bullet proof in single port mode, that means a strong enough deep frequency could cause the driver to bottom out in that setting. This is not a problem with most stuff, since most movies and music doesn't have massively boosted sub 20 hz material. However, since its pretty easy to generate a very strong low frequency when making electronic music, I would say the VTF15h should only be operated in 2 ports open mode or sealed mode if you are making electronic music, but not 1 port open mode. Unfortunately, 1 port open is where you get the deep frequency output from the VTF15h, as 2 ports open rolls off at 30 hz. On the other hand, with 2 ports open mode you would get truly massive output above 30 hz, and 99.99% of music lay in this frequency range.

 

[woensl.itis]

The VTF15h is more like $200 more than the XV15, because shipping is $140 on it, whereas shipping is built into the price of the XV15. The VTF15h is likely more powerful, but it is a large sub. A VTF15h in a 12x13 room would be pretty nuts, but fun.

One thing I would add, the VTF15h was found not to be bullet proof in single port mode, that means a strong enough deep frequency could cause the driver to bottom out in that setting. This is not a problem with most stuff, since most movies and music doesn't have massively boosted sub 20 hz material. However, since its pretty easy to generate a very strong low frequency when making electronic music, I would say the VTF15h should only be operated in 2 ports open mode or sealed mode if you are making electronic music, but not 1 port open mode. Unfortunately, 1 port open is where you get the deep frequency output from the VTF15h, as 2 ports open rolls off at 30 hz. On the other hand, with 2 ports open mode you would get truly massive output above 30 hz, and 99.99% of music lay in this frequency range.

Thanks a lot man.

So from all this, I'm getting that maybe I need to rethink my budget. I need a sub that I can mix true 20 Hz tones at. The kind of electronic music I would produce would require it. I'm not concerned with massive output on this sub as much as I am concerned with consistent, clean output at low frequencies.

Let's look in the price range closer to the VTF-15. I'd be interested to know what its competitors are. I checked the measurement curves on the ones already suggested. The XV15 looked "smoother," but I'm just a noob.
Would it be good to look at that comparison posted earlier of about 30 subs to look for more options? Or should I be focusing on PSA and HSU?

So far this thread has been extremely helpful and educational for me. I can only hope that some other dude finds it helpful as well.

 

[j_garcia]

Well, then you are in the Rythmik FV15 territory too Keep asking and things will keep getting added making your choice harder. I say just go XV15 As a few of us already said ANY of these subs are going to be nuts in a small room. You are talking theoretical - you haven't even heard one yet The subs we started with would already be more than enough for that room and you're already upgrading

 

[Steve81]

Well, then you are in the Rythmik FV15 territory too Keep asking and things will keep getting added making your choice harder. I say just go XV15

Indeed; the XV15 can cleanly deliver better than 100dB at 20Hz...at 2 meters, outdoors. In a 15x15 foot or smaller room, with potential boundary and room gain, I wouldn't expect it to have a great shortage of output.