Sub for Under 500

[FirstReflection]

In Soapboxpreacher's review above ,he says the Sealed Legend would be the choice for HT.


In theory the FV12 should of had more output than the legend being ported ,and bigger, but Soapboxpreacher (thread above) said the Legend had much more output and extension ?

Choosing the best subs for my buget and room is becoming a lot harder than i imagined. I've been reading tons of threads and prefer the ones that come from actual owners of the subs I'm interested in: Rythmik F12 , LFM-1+, Legend.

I've read a post where owner sold his Rythmik F12 for a LFM-1+ and thought it was a better OVERALL Sub for HT and Music ,...and another where the owner did the complete opposite, claiming the LFM-1+ was'nt great with music?

If only there was a (400-800 dollar) 12" mixed SUB shoot-out with Ported and Sealed Subs together .

One thing that might be causing your confusion is that when we're talking about very broad, general properties of sealed vs. ported subs, we're only talking about the natural, unfiltered and non-EQ'd response that we might expect based purely on the design.

In a case like Epik's sealed Legend and Empire subs, Epik uses EQ to boost the low end output. So even though they are sealed subs, they don't have the "normal" response curve of a sealed sub. Instead, their response curve looks more similar to the natural response curve of a ported sub, where there is a boost in the lower 20Hz area, and then quite a steep drop off below that.

Without the EQ that Epik is using, you'd have the gradual 2nd order roll-off starting up around 50Hz or so that would naturally occur with a sealed design. But because Epik is applying an EQ, you get flatter response out to 20Hz and then a steep drop off.

Another potential cause for confusion is how we perceive "loudness". What we perceive as "loud" is very often distortion or noise. It is very often the case that a person will upgrade to a much less noisy sub that has much lower distortion, and at first, they will be disappointed because it actually seems quieter! If you measure the SPL, you might get a higher reading, meaning that the sub actually is louder at the frequency that the signal is telling the subwoofer to produce! But without all the old distortion and noise, we perceive it as quieter because our brain tells us that noisy, distortion-laiden sounds are "loud", while clean, distortion-free sounds are not.

This happens with regular speakers too. With a really clean speaker that produces almost no distortion, as you increase the volume, it doesn't seem to get "louder". Instead, the voices and instruments just seem to get "closer".

If you take a look at Josh Ricci's measurements over at his data-bass.com website of the larger Epik Empire sub, you can see the sort of EQ boost that Epik is applying. You'll also see the rather high distortion that the sub produces under 40Hz. Looking at those measurements, the Empire appears to start its natural 2nd order roll-off rather high - up around 80Hz or so - but then the EQ kicks in around 40Hz are levels things off, but at the expense of higher distortion. It isn't silly to think that the smaller Legend version has some similar design choices and results from those modifications.

As I've said elsewhere - it isn't just "sealed vs. ported". Ultimately, whether the box is sealed or ported or uses passive radiators doesn't tell you if it's a "good" sub or a "bad" sub for a given preference. It can offer clues, but it is FAR from being the whole story.

In a GENERAL sense, if you are in a larger sized room and mostly care about movies, then you are generally more likely to find a ported sub that is better suited to those needs - especially if you are keeping the price under $1000. To make a sealed sub play flat and low in that sort of application and room, you need tons of amplifier power and some EQ applied to the lower end response - and that's going to cost extra money. A ported design can be more efficient, and higher efficiency can mean lower cost.

For me, the big considerations for any sub - regardless of design - are:

1) sheer SPL output
2) frequency response (I'm looking for flat response down to 20Hz if possible), but also retaining the same response shape as volume is increased.
3) transient response - how quickly the sound starts and stops when the signal tells it to.
4) audible distortion and noise

I don't really care HOW those parameters are met. I just care that they ARE.

No magic. We're just moving air around here, folks

 

[soapboxpreacher]

In Soapboxpreacher's review above ,he says the Sealed Legend would be the choice for HT.


In theory the FV12 should of had more output than the legend being ported ,and bigger, but Soapboxpreacher (thread above) said the Legend had much more output and extension ?

Choosing the best subs for my buget and room is becoming a lot harder than i imagined. I've been reading tons of threads and prefer the ones that come from actual owners of the subs I'm interested in: Rythmik F12 , LFM-1+, Legend.

I've read a post where owner sold his Rythmik F12 for a LFM-1+ and thought it was a better OVERALL Sub for HT and Music ,...and another where the owner did the complete opposite, claiming the LFM-1+ was'nt great with music?

If only there was a (400-800 dollar) 12" mixed SUB shoot-out with Ported and Sealed Subs together .

The Legend wasnt as accurate and tight...I cannot stress this enough. It was lower and could flll the room better but the FV12 sounded better. It also did not get nearly as hot! It is much more accurate and responsive. The legend could get boomy at times and overwhelm a room when comparing it to the FV12, but that could be because it was dialed up. But when I say boomy it wasnt horrible..but side by side to the FV12 which isnt boomy at all you noticed it but that can be the nature of rap/techno and hip/hop...none of which I listen to but do to see the dfferences between subs for that music can expose things that might be present in movies scenes. Nothing worse than having a scene get overwhelmed with bass and drown out everything else! I really like the FV12 a lot! For the money it is very good. It is big and ugly but it is solid!

The legend has more output because it has more surface area of air movement...(2) 12" vs (1) 12". It should have more raw output but nowhere near the accuracy I got from the servo.

IMHO sealed is great for music...but and these are some big ones. How big is your room? Where will you put the sub? What kind of music do you listen too? Heavy hip/hop, techno and rap...a ported sub will sound boomy...I dont care what anyone says. Some sealed sound boomy with this crap. The nature and heavy frequencies of that type of music will be very much exaggerated and a tuned port will bring more of it out. But outside of rap, hip/hop, techno...most music doesnt hit past 30hz. A sealed will be tighter and more responsive overall. My ported finding (with the exception of the FV12) is they arent as responsive, flat, tight, or accurate. Those are more characteristics of what we demand from music and less of in movies. Movies...sci-fi and action have those moments were 20hz does play in. Not many but they are there and nice to know they are with the right sub. But soo many are more concerned with 20hz or below that they let the sub ruin or not perform as well in those higher bass freq as they absolutely need to be.

I like 12" subs, they seem to be a sweet spot for me. Not overly huge, good range and output...overall nice fit. Tight, good accuracy. But some ported can do the trick all around music and HT. I listened to a ML dyamo 700 at the store and really liked it even for movies. It is small and stood its ground. I have a SC2000 supercube that I pitted against the FV12. it was surprisingly capable of holding its own...and keeping up with the FV12. it didnt have the authority or might but it was decent. Considering the size this sub is very good IMO. I do prefer the FV12 but if size and space are a big factor or placement...the SC2000 would make anyone happy, including me!

 

[soapboxpreacher]

There are no free rides when it comes to subwoofers. You have to remember that even though the Legend is a Sealed design, it also has 2 drivers in it. So the FV12 though ported, is a single driver. Even though i dont own either, its easy to understand whats going on with the 2 subs.

The Legend is using more components therefore the quality of said parts have to be of lesser quality in order to compete in price. Physics tells us that 2 drivers will play louder than 1 driver. So yes, for HT the Legend will play lower & louder but at the expense of articulation.

The FV12 has less involved (1driver not 2) but is able to have higher quality parts therefore better sound. Will the single diver play as loud or as low? Probably not.

As far as the 2 different example of owners liking one or the other...its simple, which one are you?

Do you want a sub that sounds clean & accurate but not as "loud" or do you want a "rock'em sock'em" sub that gets loud but doesnt have quite the detail?

Hope you choose a sub that is going to make YOU happy!! I know its hard to make a decision based only on reviews & recommendations but at the same time, your wont know until you bite the bullet.

Between the 2 (legend & FV12) id go FV12. To me, "loud" gets old but "clean" always sounds great & you can always add a second down the road.

Everything you said I agree with 100%!!! I ended up with the FV12 and love it! It can really take the volume without losing its composure! You can throw everything you want at it and it will treat you well! The Legend wasnt as graceful. Not terrible and still very good but the FV12 was excellent and a standout!

 

[tdercole]

I also own the rythmik fv12, i really love this sub. I am experiencing bass on a whole new level. I was very happy to hear that you got the rythmik to perform in the end, this thing really can move some air.