Sub for Under 500

[lsiberian]

You might try out a pair of Dayton Sub-120s. They aren't bad subs and if it's a man cave it would give you a smoother response.

 

[theJman]

FirstReflection;

Perhaps you shouldn't hold back so much - tell us what you really think of the FV12 instead. No sense being so concise and obfuscating how you truly feel. Let it out brother!

That was one heck of a recommendation. You almost have me wanting to buy one, and I'm not even looking for a subwoofer.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Oh, and the FV12 is available direct from Rythmik: Rythmik FV12 - vented HT sub

I'm not exactly sure why it's not listed on the Ascend Acoustics website. But Ascend isn't exactly the fastest when it comes to updated their website and the FV12 is a somewhat (???) new model. I know it took a rather long while before any of the vented subs showed up on the Ascend site, even when they were available for months on Rythmik's own website.

Rythmik is, indeed, suffering some amp supply problems at the moment. The various floods and natural disasters throughout Asia have caused parts supply problems for a lot of companies. But the FV12 is in stock at the moment. Like most companies that get their products made in China, Rythmik gets large shipping containers of products all at once when a shipping boat arrives. So the FV12 is available right now, but once the current stock is sold, it might possibly be a long wait before another shipping container arrives.

In any case, you can buy the FV12 direct from Rythmik at the moment and the price is $499 for either type of black finish with $66 UPS shipping within the continental USA.

WOW!! Nice! Here is one thing to throw into the mix...I am holding tight till friday for it sound like Outlaw is going to have the LFM-1 Plus on sale. If so and it is around the same cost of the FV12...is the outlaw a better option? It is pushing my size limits by an inch but I can swing it. I am not crazy about a down firing but I dont hate it. I have wood floors so this might be very good! A sub in the past I had was a down firing with a side port...it did very well! I did like it a ton! It was in my lower level till it failed. The ports on the LFM-1 Plus are down firing so I dont know if this is just gonna be a floor rattler or am I going to hear it as well. I did audition a dynamo at the house in the same location, tried it down firing and front. Down your felt it and it rattle the floors but you didnt hear it that well. In front you heard it but not with much authority. The Dynamo doesnt have a port so it lacks so reach in the extension area. It was extremely accurate but my velodyne 12 was much better overall. I do like a 12" with a port. I think for my placement a downfiring with a rear port or front firing with a port is the ideal fit. Let me know what you think of the outlaw option if the black friday sale is in fact going to include a nice deal on the LFM-1 Plus. EX is too big! The thing I do like about the LFM-1 plus is everything is in the bottom...I have a 3 year son who might find uses for the port in the front...If you know what I mean. That was a big reason why I was looking int the STF 2/VFT-1 he doesnt get behind it. But sounds like the VFT-1 would lack the nice low bass that everyone loves for home theater. Thanks again for your help.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Let me add this...The front port isnt a deal breaker but he (my Son) might find it fun...he hasnt messed with my stuff yet but you never know! My other sub with the side port had a mess covering the port from the inside. So the front was open but if something tried to get in bug, my sons M&Ms, the mess cover inside was a stopper. I called and asked Rythmik if they have anything on it they told me no. Then again it could add something to it...vibration or so on.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Ok so I ordered the Epik Legend and the FV12...2 enter 1 leaves...subwoofer cage match!

 

[FirstReflection]

Heh, sounds as though you went through quite a bit of thought and movement on this! lol

The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is almost identical to the old HSU VTF-3 MK2 or the very recently discontinued VTF-2 MK3. It's a very good sub. I own a VTF-3 MK2 myself and I still use it to this day in my living room!

It's pretty close to on par with the FV12, IMO. From my own listening experience, the VTF-3 MK2 was actually capable of a little bit more output at certain frequencies than the FV12, but the FV12 could reach just a couple Hz lower with flat frequency response. Almost a bit of cutting hairs here - they're really very close to one another, IMO.

I'm a sucker for hitting 20Hz flat. You combine the FV12 reaching just a tiny bit lower than the LFM-1 Plus and normally being $50 cheaper and it makes me favor the FV12. But, like I said, I'd fully expect the two to be extremely close in performance given my own experiences with the FV12 and the VTF-3 MK2.

Anywho, that might be moot now! Being able to compare the Epik Legend and the Rythmik FV12 in your own home with your own ears really is the best way to decide! So I'm very happy to see you taking that approach. If you're after deep extension and some good, tactile output, my expectation is that you'll wind up favoring the FV12. But you've got the chance to really hear, compare and decide for yourself, which is fantastic and sure to make you happier in the long run!

Please be sure to come back and let us know how things pan out! As for the port on the front of the FV12 - young kids certainly do find ways to stick their hands into subwoofer ports and/or drop things in there It's not the end of the world if you have to unscrew the driver and/or amplifier and pull something out of the FV12, but it is a bit of a hassle to be sure. Rythmik does not cover the port with the supplied grill, so I can appreciate that being a bit of a concern. If there is indeed a sale over at Outlaw or HSU, then an LFM-1 Plus or VTF-2 MK4 might be a very good alternative if the Epik Legend doesn't quite satisfy and the FV12 proves to be any sort of problem with its open front port

 

[soapboxpreacher]

I heard from HSU that they are not going to be dealing on the VFT2. They will on the VFT1 and the STFs. The Outlaw is also looking like they will be doing something on the Plus but you have to sign up for the invite tonight by 12AM. Rythmik said they were not going to discount anything so did Chad at Epik. I do like the VFT-2 for the ports are on the back and the drive fires down not have the driver and the ports firing down...I like the HSU design better then than the Outlaw. Bounce off the back wall I found to fill my room better using a port...this was with some older subs I tested that had ports on them with downward firing driver. It helped the extension quite a bit! I will keep you guys posted. Anyone in the north burbs of chitown you are welcome to listen. Let me know.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Follow up:

Got the legend today and was switching between my old Velodynes s-1200 to the legend and at first I was disappointed till I played a few more blu-rays and DVDs not to mention dialed it in. It isnt as tight or accurate as my velodynes but it has far more output and much more low end hz. It does have some more boom to it but not horrible and it isnt as if it is inaccurate or tight the velodynes is just in a different league but lacks a ton of SPL and low end. This is just my initial 4 hours of use finding. It is sounding better and I am hearing things that I did not before. Star Wars Ep 2 assassination bombing scene with the velodynes it bottomed out and could not play it...the legend went through it much better with some minor strain but it pulled it off. The SPL is far and away higher with the legend. I did have to dial it up past 12 o'clock (50%) but it is going good at about 65-70%. Recalibrated with the mic. It is crossed over at 120hz, I found it better at 120 then 100hz. My son got a little tired of watching iRobot scenes 3-6x but I want to make sure I had it set right. Nothing worse then a bad setup/configuration! I hope to get the FV12 this week. I have high hopes for it and think it will be the best I have been longing for. But I do like the Epik it is solid!

 

[shadyJ]

The Legend should have terrific mid and upper bass, and ok deep bass down to the 20s, at least if the measurements of the Empire is anything to go by. The guy at Epik said the FR should be the same except just a few db short of the Empire. The Empire had a huge amount of upper bass, according to the graphs I have seen, almost like a pro sub used for events. I would expect the FV12 to have a flatter FR with more output lower but not as much higher up, and it may actually end up sounding quieter. Anyway, I look forward to your comparison.

 

[theJman]

I suspect it will get a lot better once the sub has broken in - 4 hours is really just the start. You should probably hold off on any critical listening until you have at least a dozen hours on it.

BTW... what type of speakers are your other 5 channels? 120Hz seems awfully high for a crossover. That should make the sub very obvious, which is not what you want.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

I suspect it will get a lot better once the sub has broken in - 4 hours is really just the start. You should probably hold off on any critical listening until you have at least a dozen hours on it.

BTW... what type of speakers are your other 5 channels? 120Hz seems awfully high for a crossover. That should make the sub very obvious, which is not what you want.

I was told no break-in was needed. Also the speakers are Klipsch towers (RF52II). They are big and set to full range/band so they will go into the 35hz range (Onkyo called this setting double bass and Denon does have a refer to it but the denon is set up the same). Full Range is going to the fronts. But the legend is crossed over at 120hz for I felt there seemed to be more it added. My velodynes only does 100hz.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

This morning findings:

Avatar Testing with both the Velodynes and the Legend. I have noticed something over every listening test. The Legend has the 25hz and below covered. Not perfect but it can handle it. It does lose its composure but it can go where the velodynes cant. But I prefer the velodynes. It has soo much more control and accuracy it isnt funny. It cant handle as much power (upper level volume) as the legend but from 25-100hz it is so much better then the legend. Watching the first 6 minutes of avatar over 4x with each sub I could here things different with both. The legend could handle the lows of th accent into pandora where the velodynes didnt have the range...however the legend didnt handle it well. But everything from the mech walking to the big dump truck passing "meals on wheels" was much better on the velodynes. I am amazed at how accurate the velodynes is. It makes the Legend come off as muddy (it isnt that muddy or boomy but the velodynes is soooo precise!, but when it goes beyond its range it bottoms hard trying to do what it cant...it is rare but it happens). So the verdict is still out but I would stick with my velodynes at the point. I am beginning to be a believer of the servo. One other note. The 25-100hz range really baffled me, for the velodynes presences is so much more obvious and appreciated it isnt even funny. The legend missed so much in this area. There was a big difference. Surprising to is that I felt more from the velodynes as well. I have now listened in several different positions. I also believe that the velodynes with its forward facing design is better in the position I have then the legend so to be fair I think some of this might be position. But I was told that this sub was suppose to be less position sensitive then the other subs. When it comes to 25hz or below the velodynes is done but because the legend can do below 25hz does mean it does it perfect all the time. Add volume and it cant keep its composure very well but still manages thru it. Still more testing to go so stay tuned.

 

[theJman]

I was told no break-in was needed.

Who told you that, Epik? Unless they break-in all of their subs before shipping I would have to disagree with them.

It's been my experience that all speakers need a break-in, but subwoofers especially. I've never heard one come out of the box sounding as good as it does after it's been run for hours. AAMOF, the manual for my XTZ sub says the break-in time is 50-100 hours. While that strikes me as a bit excessive I can definitely say it started to open up much better after at least 2 dozen hours.

Don't be surprised if you find the same thing. Maybe your placement is ultimately a problem for the side-firing drivers, but I would still bet it sounds better after a few more hours.

 

[DVDIT]

Heh, sounds as though you went through quite a bit of thought and movement on this! lol

The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is almost identical to the old HSU VTF-3 MK2 or the very recently discontinued VTF-2 MK3. It's a very good sub. I own a VTF-3 MK2 myself and I still use it to this day in my living room!

It's pretty close to on par with the FV12, IMO. From my own listening experience, the VTF-3 MK2 was actually capable of a little bit more output at certain frequencies than the FV12, but the FV12 could reach just a couple Hz lower with flat frequency response. Almost a bit of cutting hairs here - they're really very close to one another, IMO.

I'm a sucker for hitting 20Hz flat. You combine the FV12 reaching just a tiny bit lower than the LFM-1 Plus and normally being $50 cheaper and it makes me favor the FV12. But, like I said, I'd fully expect the two to be extremely close in performance given my own experiences with the FV12 and the VTF-3 MK2.

I was on the fence, not sure on which to pull the trigger. But after reading your post, I have decided on the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus for $448 shipped. Designed by HSU, clone of the HSU VTF3 MK2, proven reliability, very nice look and $100 cheaper than the FV12 to boot. Thank you for this very useful post.

BTW, what is your current main sub ?

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Epik told me about breakin...chad. But this isn't an epik bashing. The sub is good but my old velodynes that was over $1100 in its day sound to me better. The epik is capable of greater output and lower hz. It isn't as accurate but it isn't a slob either. The old velodynes servo control is decent but cannot handle the low hz and cannot handle itself when the volume levels get up where as the epik can. I prefer the sound of the velodynes at the moment. I do notice that I hear stuff that the epik misses (or is just less pronounced, seems to be in the mid to upper bass...the velodynes just does this better) but the epik by no means is a bad sub. My placement might be a big part of the problem it is against the wall to the right of my front floor speaker about a foot away. It does shake the house at the low frequencies and does have some boom to it but it isn't a bad boomy trait like you would think...the velodynes has zero boom. It has some punch to it but not much past it's low end. Let's not forget this old sub is still a very good sub. It has had tons of miles on it. It was the first of the servos to come out. I have heard other servos I did not like. This one is my reference to compare with in my home. So do not think by any means that the epik is bad. Remember this is all subjective. Someone else might come in and like the epik. But to me I prefer the velodyne I have. The epik is also 1/2 the cost of what the velodyne was. So it isn't necessarily a fair fight. More to come, I will try and post some pictures here as well.

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Let me add this about my old velodynes and probably why I like it so much. It is extremely responsive, extremely tight, extremely accurate. Why because of this:

100w rms w/3500 corrections per second on the servo amp!!

So I am use to this...can a 500 dollar sub compete with the above...maybe...have to wait and see if the rythmik FV12 is up to it. Now it is true that the velodynes doesnt have the extension/output or the low end so it loses out there because the legend does and I hear certain things I didnt with the legend compared to the velodynes at the lower hz. So the velodynes isnt a run away champ

 

[theJman]

Epik told me about breakin...chad. But this isn't an epik bashing.

I wasn't inferring you were, just curious as to who was telling you that. I've never seen or heard of a subwoofer that didn't need to be broken in. Perhaps Epik is doing something different than everyone else.

 

[theJman]

Let me add this about my old velodynes and probably why I like it so much. It is extremely responsive, extremely tight, extremely accurate. Why because of this:

100w rms w/3500 corrections per second on the servo amp!!

So I am use to this...can a 500 dollar sub compete with the above...maybe...have to wait and see if the rythmik FV12 is up to it. Now it is true that the velodynes doesnt have the extension/output or the low end so it loses out there because the legend does and I hear certain things I didnt with the legend compared to the velodynes at the lower hz. So the velodynes isnt a run away champ

If you want to go the servo route you should be looking into Rythmik instead. That's pretty much all they do, and their subs are very highly regarded.

 

[FirstReflection]

Huh,

I haven't yet heard Epik's newest subs. Both the Legend and Empire are dual opposed sealed subs. I was expecting, purely from the design, that they'd have better transient response and an overall "tighter" sound than their old, discontinued ported subs. From soapbox's account, that might not be the case. Not that I'm terribly surprised. I was very disappointed with the pair of Epik Sentinels that I bought a couple years back. So maybe the cheap drivers and super cheap amps that Epik uses are more the problem than even a good design can overcome.

I don't talk about Epik much anymore because the Epik fans always get MAJORLY pissed and mainly because I haven't heard their only two available subs. I will say though that I am extremely unimpressed with their parts quality - especially their amps - which is why I haven't really bothered to take a good look at them since their product line update. Why they don't just use BASH amps is beyond me. Not that BASH amps are any great heck, but they're a million miles of magnitude better than the super cheapo amps that Epik is and always has sourced. I guess hitting that low price point is just more important to them since Epik fans don't seem to care about transient response or accuracy - just SPL.

ANYWHO, the good news is that you've got the Rythmik FV12 on the way, so you're about to hear the best bass that $500 can buy As for "break in" - yes, any parts that physically move require some time to break in. The driver - being the only moving part - needs a bit of break in time. The sound will also change as the voice coil heats up. This break in time is about 15 seconds to 1 minute. All the hours or days or weeks talk is right up there with the "expensive cables improve the sound" talk. Audioholics has extensively tested both claims (break in and cables) and found that the only thing that "breaks in" after longer than a minute is your own perception as you get used to the sound vs what you were hearing before. And as for cables, unless there is something seriously wrong with the cable, it's not going to make any audible difference or improvement. In both cases, if there's something wrong with the speaker or the cable, then yes, it can make a difference in the sound. But so long as the product isn't broken? "Break in" takes only a minute and any competently made cable will work perfectly fine.

And I do still love the Epik fans. They can never believe it when someone doesn't love an Epik sub. They always start to talk about how you have to break them in or position them better or play with the cross over more and on and on. And yes, absolutely careful placement and cross over integration make a difference and can improve the sound of any sub. But why is it that any of us who have heard an accurate sub with tight transient response are never impressed with Epik's subs? Could it be that you simply cannot make and sell a sub that has two 12 inch drivers, a sizeable box and a claimed 300 Watt digital amp for under $500 while incorporating a decent profit into that price without resorting to using cheap, low quality parts? It's always "Epik subs are teh besterest dealz EVAR! Just look at that price and those specs! Teh Spekss!" Yeah, look at that price indeed. Should be a clue right there

 

[soapboxpreacher]

Once again, the comparison is not as fair or even as I thought with the legend and an older servo velodynes. It is not a bad sub. As much as I didnt think break in was necessary this thing is getting better...still not to the tightness and responsiveness of the servo velodynes but the mid bass is becoming more present. Out of the box...mid bass was missed!! Once again...at first I didnt hear much of the mid bass like I did with the velodynes. Now after 12 hours it is getting better...I doubted this but I cant believe that it is actually has gotten better. As I have said the lows and output on the legend are substantially better!! But it is nowhere near the control or precision of the velo. But the legend is not a pig. For the money it is solid. I think my taste puts me in a f12, SVS SB12, X-12, ML Dynamo 1000. All not what I wanted to spend. If the FV12 is better than my Velo and can hit those low hz with the right mix of output...I am a believe. But these forums are clouded with bad info. Almost plagued with a staff writers like dominance and fanboys who havent listened to anything but what they own...or even havent listened and just go with the consensus. The Epik legend isnt a bad sub...it is still better than most I have listened to. But to be honest I was expecting more considering the posts and discussions. Not to mention I was told it would clobber my velo...and that was not the case.