Stereo amps Vs AVRs

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have owned AVR, Pre-pro, Pre-amp, Integrated Amp, Amps, speakers, etc., that cost a lot more than what most people would consider buying.

Many of us have owned and compared systems that cost a lot more than what most people would consider buying.

And we can tell you that AVR will sound at least as good as the Integrated Amp, if not better.

If your speakers require that you need more power (far listening distance like 6 meters from chair to speakers and/or volume is high) or you just want more power (like many of us do), it's okay to get a separate amp and hook up to your AVR (that has pre-outs).

In my HT room, I'm sitting about 6 meters away from the speakers. So I'm glad I am using separate 300WPC amps.

So go with AVR alone, AVR + Amp, or Pre-Pro + Amp, but don't waste money on an integrated amp.

 

[whiplash]

I have owned AVR, Pre-pro, Pre-amp, Integrated Amp, Amps, speakers, etc., that cost a lot more than what most people would consider buying.

Many of us have owned and compared systems that cost a lot more than what most people would consider buying.

And we can tell you that AVR will sound at least as good as the Integrated Amp, if not better.

If your speakers require that you need more power (far listening distance like 6 meters from chair to speakers and/or volume is high) or you just want more power (like many of us do), it's okay to get a separate amp and hook up to your AVR (that has pre-outs).

In my HT room, I'm sitting about 6 meters away from the speakers. So I'm glad I am using separate 300WPC amps.

So go with AVR alone, AVR + Amp, or Pre-Pro + Amp, but don't waste money on an integrated amp.

Well, all what I want to tell you all, if you have opportunity to listen a pair os speakers(about $2000) and the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 with PerfectRoom ON(in focus mode and of course to sit here focus point was setup) and after OFF, go, do it, and come back here and describe the feeling.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, all what I want to tell you all, if you have opportunity to listen a pair os speakers(about $2000) and the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 with PerfectRoom ON(in focus mode and of course to sit here focus point was setup) and after OFF, go, do it, and come back here and describe the feeling.

LOL you buy the airplane ticket to Paris and I'd be glad to I sure as hell wouldn't bother driving anywhere to look at a $4k amp in any case. No need, have more amps than I need already

 

[ski2xblack]

I'm doing fine using REW and dsp/peq, thanks.

Maybe PerfectRoom rules over all, but so far, IME, manual calibration >> automagic.

 

[whiplash]

LOL you buy the airplane ticket to Paris and I'd be glad to I sure as hell wouldn't bother driving anywhere to look at a $4k amp in any case. No need, have more amps than I need already

LOL. You're more stubborn than a mule. In my country he have an expression: "You have horse glasses". That means you see just straight/forward. And it's not an insulte, we use that expression when someone think "invented the wheel" in your case the audio system. Even you have more experience than me, you should give it a try before to argue even with the president of audioholics.com I think people must be more open mind and at least to try/listen things before to make he's own opinion. An open mind can advance more in life instead of people who indulge with the idea they know all. And that's not means to be a YES MAN.

And I'm sure you can find it in US too, this integrate amp.

 

[whiplash]

I'm doing fine using REW and dsp/peq, thanks.

Maybe PerfectRoom rules over all, but so far, IME, manual calibration >> automagic.

Well, i dunno, but I'm not one who can do this by yourself So for that I need the technology to help me

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL. You're more stubborn than a mule. In my country he have an expression: "You have horse glasses". That means you see just straight/forward. And it's not an insulte, we use that expression when someone think "invented the wheel" in your case the audio system. Even you have more experience than me, you should give it a try before to argue even with the president of audioholics.com I think people must be more open mind and at least to try/listen things before to make he's own opinion. An open mind can advance more in life instead of people who indulge with the idea they know all. And that's not means to be a YES MAN.

And I'm sure you can find it in US too, this integrate amp.

I found one about 2200 miles away. It's a several hour roundtrip driving anywhere with much audio gear selection. I'm sure it's a nice unit but it isn't going to "make my day" and its something I don't need and its far too expensive and limited for what it is ($4400 with the hdmi thing). Have fun! I didn't read that Gene is particularly recommending any such thing btw....but then English isn't your forte either...

 

[whiplash]

I found one about 2200 miles away. It's a several hour roundtrip driving anywhere with much audio gear selection. I'm sure it's a nice unit but it isn't going to "make my day" and its something I don't need and its far too expensive and limited for what it is ($4400 with the hdmi thing). Have fun! I didn't read that Gene is particularly recommending any such thing btw....but then English isn't your forte either...

Dude, look here, I already said twice, and I will tell you last time. A dealer made me an offer the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 + HDMI card(not with HDMI+USB+Analogic inputs) AT THE SAME PRICE LIKE BASIC MODEL.
Now, here a link to see the price for basic one:

http://www.uploudaudio.com/boutique/lyngdorf-tdai-2170/

$2,899.00, that's the price.

And he even make a reduction of price. Not a big one, but anyway better than nothing.

Some people are really grudge, I dunno what they "win" with that or that is kind of excitation?

Now, have fun.

 

[lovinthehd]

Dude, look here, I already said twice, and I will tell you last time. A dealer made me an offer the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 + HDMI card(not with HDMI+USB+Analogic inputs) AT THE SAME PRICE LIKE BASIC MODEL.
Now, here a link to see the price for basic one:

http://www.uploudaudio.com/boutique/lyngdorf-tdai-2170/

$2,899.00, that's the price.

And he even make a reduction of price. Not a big one, but anyway better than nothing.

Some people are really grudge, I dunno what they "win" with that or that is kind of excitation?

Now, have fun.

$4400 was the price of the unit with hdmi in Green Bay, $4000 for the base unit...Lyngdorf isn't real big in the US. Have fun yourself. See what I mean about the language?

 

[whiplash]

$4400 was the price of the unit with hdmi in Green Bay, $4000 for the base unit...Lyngdorf isn't real big in the US. Have fun yourself. See what I mean about the language?

Dude, I really don't know what you mean with Green Bay, but I gave you a link with the price. And was the first one on google. And much more than that, you know very well from the other topic my budget is about 2000-2500 euro which means $2200-$2700. And if Lyngdorf don't say to you nothing, try Steinway Lyngdorf

 

[lovinthehd]

Green Bay was the 2200 mile drive to a store I found using google for that specific amp! First result, too. Peter Lyngdorf did pair up with Steinway, yes....

 

[Pogre]

If you did read better you could see the price for Lingdorf TDAI-2170 with HDMI card(1.4) is at the same price like the basic model. Told ya, a dealer make me this offert. And no, I didn't compare a $4k with a $1200. Go and read the article posted by Rich and you will understand better, that in case you want to admit the reality, if not, is up to you and to others who believe the same thing like you

From the looks of your poll and the replies in your thread, it looks like 90% of the folks on this forum think that way...

In fact I might change my vote for the same reasons Kew voted for AVR. He makes a really good point.

 

[KEW]

Well maybe I don't understand the question. But the integrated amp will drive the L/R speakers even for movies. He have that option for HT.

Or if it's not that the question, please explain it more empirically I'm not native english speaker.

Okay, I looked at manual for the Lyngdorf and see that they require a pre-out from you AVR going into the Lyngdorf RCA inputs. So you will never use your Lyngdorf volume control once you adjust it. That is a little unconventional since you have the extra noise of going through two pre-amps, but it will work.

The only power specification I could find was 170W into 4ohms at 1kHz with .07 THD+N! This is disturbing. Any high quality integrated amp should provide a RMS (continuous) power rating at 20Hz to 20kHz. The specs given look like a dynamic (20 millisecond) rating. The manual had all kinds of details on other specs, but that is all it has for power capability! Have you seen any additional, more detailed power specifications? This looks to be a more extreme example than the Pioneer AVR Gene called out for only providing power rating at 6 Ohms at 1kHz in the video RichB referenced.

Well designed Class D amps show about 75% increase in wattage when going from 8 to 4 Ohms. If we apply that to the 170 Watt (4 Ohm) spec, this is a 100 Watt (into 8 ohm) amp. That still doesn't address the fact that the 170 Watt spec is only at 1kHz and not continuous. We are probably looking at a 50-70 Watt amp! I wish there were some reviews with lab measurements.

The ICC (Inter-sample Clipping Correction) circuitry looks brilliant, but as I understand it, I'd rather spend the money on more wattage so as to simply avoid clipping, rather than have a weak power amp that cleverly limits the level to avoid clipping. One review said it didn't sound loud, but then decided he was mistaken...a strange comment - if he was mistaken, why mention it?

If you are not familiar with them, here is a link discussing how power is typically rated:
http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/1071/2483/What-s_the_difference_between_Continuous_RMS_-_Dynamic_Power_

At a minimum, I hope you can find out more about the power rating and how it would convert to the "RMS continuous watts from 20Hz to 20kHz at X% distortion" convention commonly used by high quality amp manufacturers.

You have to admit that noise from two pre-amps and the weak power rating are disappointing in a premier product (that costs $2,900).

However, if you've heard it and are convinced you heard the amp instead of the room or speakers, go for it! Most importantly, enjoy music!

 

[PENG]

LOL. You're more stubborn than a mule. In my country he have an expression: "You have horse glasses". That means you see just straight/forward. And it's not an insulte, we use that expression when someone think "invented the wheel" in your case the audio system. Even you have more experience than me, you should give it a try before to argue even with the president of audioholics.com I think people must be more open mind and at least to try/listen things before to make he's own opinion. An open mind can advance more in life instead of people who indulge with the idea they know all. And that's not means to be a YES MAN.

And I'm sure you can find it in US too, this integrate amp.

As you said very well, let's not argue with Gene, the president of AH, but not be a yes man either.
Now, in that video Gene tried to make a point I guess, so he used a $6,500 list price Class A power amplifier to compare with a mid range $2,000 (at launch time) Denon AVR-5200.

He also talked about normal listening level and hard to drive speakers. Your speakers are not considered hard to drive, and you emphasized multiple times you are talking about low listening level.

So I don't think anyone has to argue with Gene because he is not comparing what we are trying to compare here.

For a more apple to apple comparison, I recommend the two reviews below, also done by Audioholics and bench measurements by Gene, the president. Prices are about the same for those two units, but we all know the street price of AVRs are typically much lower so it is almost certain that the Yamaha RX-A1010 would have been much more affordable than the S801 integrated amp. In reality we should probably cmparing the RX-A2020, or Denon AVR-X4200 to the Yamaha S801 integrated amp.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/rx-a1010/rx-a1010-measurements

http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/yamaha-a-s801-amplifier-review

Still, you an see that for 2 channel applications, the AVR is actually more powerful at the 0.1% THD point, and we know Gene used the same methodologies in conducting his bench test measurements.

 

[KEW]

BTW, while in his video, Gene says his reference speakers are not an easy load, what he doesn't say is that they are an extraordinarily difficult load. The impedance goes down to ~2.6 Ohms

Any amp used with these speakers should be rated at 2 Ohms to insure compatibility. Most companies don't design for this because it would make their amps needlessly expensive! But I guess Status Acoustics figures if you are spending $50,000 for speakers, you can afford a $6,000+ power amp!

I wish Gene had used a more normal speaker for their listening tests. What he experienced is not really useful to the rest of us.

 

[PENG]

From the looks of your poll and the replies in your thread, it looks like 90% of the folks on this forum think that way...

In fact I might change my vote for the same reasons Kew voted for AVR. He makes a really good point.

I didn't vote because I find the question a little too general for a definitive answer. As ADTG said, AVR with REQ would have an advantage especially if Subwoofers are involved and also if the REQ software is Audyssey XT32/SubEQHT, Dirac, Anthem ARC or better.

 

[sterling shoote]

Quality multi channel sound/music is here today for peanuts so the this vs that arguments just seem moot. Seems to me stereo preamps, as well as integrated ones are loosing ground to multi channel digital preamps, power amps, and receivers. I like the pre/pro route since it can output with external amplification to passive speakers or without external amplification to active speakers. Plus, wireless capability is pretty much standard on todays pre/pros and AVR's. For that capability with stereo integrated amps add on devices like Airport Express will need to be plugged in.

 

[<eargiant]

I have to vote for the Integrated.

I realize this point of view is not going to endear me to most here but IME, there is no way that a mid-level AVR (something like a Denon AVR-3803 or 3312ci) sounds equal to or better than high quality integrated amplifiers (of even lower rated power) which usually have better power supplies and higher quality discrete components. Just the pre-amp alone in most AVR's is a deal killer. Not even in direct mode will a chip laden AVR be able to compete. Unless your AVR is one of those giant monsters they used to make, there's no contest when it comes to audio quality.

Even with a pair of mid-level headphones like AKG 712/702's the difference is easy to hear. Do you guys really think you can get an all-in-one box with all the bells and whistles without making any compromises?

 

[whiplash]

Green Bay was the 2200 mile drive to a store I found using google for that specific amp! First result, too. Peter Lyngdorf did pair up with Steinway, yes....

Okay, I looked at manual for the Lyngdorf and see that they require a pre-out from you AVR going into the Lyngdorf RCA inputs. So you will never use your Lyngdorf volume control once you adjust it. That is a little unconventional since you have the extra noise of going through two pre-amps, but it will work.

I don't care so much about movies, because just than I will use the AVR. For music, I will use just the integrate amp. And Lyngdorf have HT setup, it's really made for HT, to can be very well integrate it.
I want to specific something, I'm very interesting in music sound quality. And if you take a look at Marantz SR6011 you will can see, he's not "so good" with 4ohm speakers like my speakers.(DALI Opticon 6).

The only power specification I could find was 170W into 4ohms at 1kHz with .07 THD+N! This is disturbing. Any high quality integrated amp should provide a RMS (continuous) power rating at 20Hz to 20kHz. The specs given look like a dynamic (20 millisecond) rating. The manual had all kinds of details on other specs, but that is all it has for power capability! Have you seen any additional, more detailed power specifications? This looks to be a more extreme example than the Pioneer AVR Gene called out for only providing power rating at 6 Ohms at 1kHz in the video RichB referenced.

I find in 8 ohm he have 85W. I couldn't find more specs.

Well designed Class D amps show about 75% increase in wattage when going from 8 to 4 Ohms. If we apply that to the 170 Watt (4 Ohm) spec, this is a 100 Watt (into 8 ohm) amp. That still doesn't address the fact that the 170 Watt spec is only at 1kHz and not continuous. We are probably looking at a 50-70 Watt amp! I wish there were some reviews with lab measurements.

Here i will put some reviews:

From http://www.geckohomecinema.com/article-details/lyngdorf-home-audio-home-cinema/:

"
CLARITY – By amplifying your music digitally, sound is reproduced with none of the distortion inherent in analogue amplifiers. Place a TDA in your music system and you will be removing dozens of analogue components from the single path. The result is sound reproduced with unparalleled clarity.

POWER – Turn up the volume on an analogue amplifier and unwelcome noise is introduced. The digital TDA can run at full volume level with no hint of strain or distortion. This sleek, compact amplifier will comfortably drive the largest of loudspeakers providing superior sound quality than can be achieved with a rack of electronics.

CONSISTANCY – The weakest link in any quality audio system is the acoustics of the listening room. As the TDA works digitally, very high fidelity room correction can be implemented that will ensure what you hear in your room is everything your speakers are capable of. With over 50 elements covering one of the audio world’s most extensive audio patents, RoomPerfect provides a breakthrough in the quality and consistency of sound reproduction."

From a owner:

"I'm fully sold on the RoomPerfect from Lyngdorf, it counters some major problems in normal setups where for example you place your speakers way out from the back wall, this resulting in a more even bass response but much worse timing in the bass. With RoomPerfect you place the speakers up against the wall(and woofers in corners/also up to the wall, if you use subs(2 prefered ofcourse)) resulting in a much better timing and with the correction a very good response.
Ive tried different room correction programs like Dirac and Audyssey xt32 but nothing has come even close to what roomperfect did for me."

From someone who made a test:

"The “basic” amplifier provides:-

· True Digital Amplification 2 x 170w- For music and TV reproduction with none of the noise and distortion found in analogue amplifiers

· RoomPerfect – optimise your speakers and reduce acoustic errors with the world’s only three dimensional room correction system

· Use as an integrated amplifier or as a pre amplifier with optional active bass management for use with single or multiple subwoofers

· Time alignment of any speaker system

· Active speaker design – allows the design of advanced speaker systems

· Voicings – tailor the sound to your personal preferences or to compensate for poor recordings

· Intersample Clipping Correction (ICC™) Reduce errors from compressed recordings

· The only automated room correction system developed for audiophile stereo applications

· Unique in performing a 3 dimensional analysis of the entire room, not just the listening positions

· The only system that derives information beyond the rooms’ acoustic properties, including:-

· Power response throughout the room

· Loudspeaker directivity

· High frequency roll-off

· Characteristics of low frequency roll-off

· A unique measurement approach measures only those frequencies that need correcting. This dramatically increases the resolution of the measurements taken

· 1/12 band correction is used - the highest resolution of any system of this type - as this is the level of resolution that is necessary for accurate correction."

Maybe all the review are subjective, but are better than unsupported opinions(I mean from the people who didn't even try it/listening).

 

[ski2xblack]

No. Without some actual bench testing, reviews are nothing but unsupported opinions.

It's quite apparent that you're not receptive to anything that contradicts the BS marketing you've previously encountered. Until you become more "open minded" about how all this works and learn to take a hint, you will forever be lost in the consumerism maze. I suggest applying basic academic research standards to vetting your sources of information.