Speaker opinions/recommendation

[emsti]

Put your 163's in the back and get Pioneers for the front three.

Hi Kew - I have setup the 163's as surround back but in most movies they sound very low for the most part whereas the surround left and right almost always have sound in my 7.1 setup. I'm thinking that's probably got something to do with most movies coming with 5.1 surround sound.

Would you recommend moving the 163s to the surround left and right?

 

[afterlife2]

Hi Kew - I have setup the 163's as surround back but in most movies they sound very low for the most part whereas the surround left and right almost always have sound in my 7.1 setup. I'm thinking that's probably got something to do with most movies coming with 5.1 surround sound.

Would you recommend moving the 163s to the left and right?

No need to move them. Most to all streaming Is done in 5.1. There Is a AVS thread that has a list of all 7.1 movies on Blu-ray. Do a Google search. Did you do a mic setup?

 

[emsti]

Yep, I've done the mic setup 3 times already this year as I've been moving the speakers around.

 

[afterlife2]

What did you get on your crossover with the mic? DTS mostly needs Fronts 80, Center 80, surround 40/60 and sub LFE.

 

[emsti]

Fronts are 40, Center is 40, surround Left/right are 150, surround backs are at 50 and LPF of LFE is 80.
I have setup the listening mode to THX Cinema.

 

[afterlife2]

You need to adjust those Front(One very real potential disadvantage of a 40Hz crossover is increased Doppler distortion from the mains), center and LFE. Read this: Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance

 

[KEW]

Hi Kew - I have setup the 163's as surround back but in most movies they sound very low for the most part whereas the surround left and right almost always have sound in my 7.1 setup. I'm thinking that's probably got something to do with most movies coming with 5.1 surround sound.

Would you recommend moving the 163s to the surround left and right?

AL2 has covered it for me.

The main thing is that the front three are matched - which you have with the Andrew Jones Pioneer speakers.
Some day if you are interested in experimenting, swap out a 163 for the PIO center and watch a movie where sounds get passed across the front soundstage.

 

[emsti]

You need to adjust those Front(One very real potential disadvantage of a 40Hz crossover is increased Doppler distortion from the mains), center and LFE. Read this: Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance

Thanks for sending this across, finally got round to reading through it [edit, didnt proof read my response]

So this is what I took away from reading that:

1. Better to usually set your crossover frequency 10 Hz above the lowest [documented or detected] capability of your speaker.
- the Pioneers are 40 Hz for left/right and 55 Hz for center.
- the 163s are rated 49 Hz

sounds like I should raise them as per the link, though not sure I'm hearing distortion. For that matter I don't know how to detect distortion or how to detect standing bass waves.

2. THX processing and DSP assumes (and sometimes initiates) an 80Hz crossover setting for the LFE.
- Not sure how to interpret this one.
- Should I not use the THX setting on my receiver as it may ignore my crossover settings, or use DTS as you seemed to be suggesting?

3. Not sure if I should have picked up something as well, feel free to correct where I may be going off totally.

Would appreciate thoughts, corrections suggestions.

 

[emsti]

Some day if you are interested in experimenting, swap out a 163 for the PIO center and watch a movie where sounds get passed across the front soundstage.

I definitely want to try this out, not sure if I should only expect the effect of different tonal changes or something else [as well]?

I do have a question too:
Should I just put a 163 in place of the center, or would I need to run Audessey too?

 

[KEW]

Thanks for sending this across, finally got round to reading through it [edit, didnt proof read my response]

So this is what I took away from reading that:

1. Better to usually set your crossover frequency 10 Hz above the lowest [documented or detected] capability of your speaker.
- the Pioneers are 40 Hz for left/right and 55 Hz for center.
- the 163s are rated 49 Hz

The article recommends at least 10Hz above the bottom frequency of your speakers.
30Hz is a better rule of thumb for an AVR. If you go to SVS's site and use their Merlin tool for the Pioneer FS52

Merlin - SVS

You will end up with the following recommendations:
[TABLE="class: settings, width: 692"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="class: text-center, width: 37"][/TH]
[TH="width: 363"]Setup[/TH]
[TH="width: 187"]Adjustment feature[/TH]
[TH="width: 104"]Setting[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: bg1"]
[TD="class: text-center"]1[/TD]
[TD]AV Receiver or Surround Sound Processor
Performing Digital Bass Management[/TD]
[TD]Recommended Speaker/Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (Hz)[/TD]
[TD]80 Hz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: bg2"]
[TD="class: text-center"]2[/TD]
[TD]2 - Channel Application
(Which means no bass management at the preamp level)[/TD]
[TD]Recommended Low Pass Filter Frequency Setting (Hz)[/TD]
[TD]50 Hz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: bg2"]
[TD]Recommended Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave)[/TD]
[TD]12 dB/octave (in 2 channel application)[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

What this means is if you are using a standard AVR which will roll-off the low frequencies from the speakers, XO at 80 Hz.

If you only have the XO built into the sub (so the speaker must play full range), XO the sub at 50Hz.

For example, if you are using a vintage integrated amp (no bass management), the pioneers get the full signal and will play full range (down to 40 Hz). If you set the sub at 80Hz XO, the frequencies from 40Hz to 80Hz would be played by both the sub and the speakers, which would give you a big (presumably undesirable) bass hump in the frequency response.

 

[KEW]

I definitely want to try this out, not sure if I should only expect the effect of different tonal changes or something else [as well]?

I do have a question too:
Should I just put a 163 in place of the center, or would I need to run Audessey too?

"Different tonal changes" is an apt description.

Yes re-run Audyssey so the SPL levels of the speakers will be matched.

 

[emsti]

You need to adjust those Front(One very real potential disadvantage of a 40Hz crossover is increased Doppler distortion from the mains), center and LFE. Read this: Setting the Subwoofer / LFE Crossover for Best Performance

1. I changed the frequency settings for the front 3 Pioneers varying them from 40 all the way to 80 (now), as well setting the 163s to 80 (now) and I'm not sure I could tell much of a difference. I've been listening to Transformers (dvd with 5.1 audio). **

2. I also went ahead and moved the 163s to the surround left/right as they are much bigger (size and sound) than the Yamaha surrounds (part of the 1800BL 5.1 system) I was using earlier as surround left-right. Audyssey set the smaller Yamaha's to 120 Hz at the new surround back left/right positions instead of 150 Hz (for surround left/right) and I set the 163s to 80 Hz. Switching these speakers out produced a more noticeable effect (or perhaps just in my mind ).

Things to do
a. Move the subwoofer around (its in front of the TV, between the center and front right)
b. Switch the 163 with the center
c. **Need to try the frequency combinations with perhaps a Batman, Lord of the Rings or Cloverfield [movie]. There is one scene in Transformers when a couple of take off and the sound is a little harsh, and I heard the harshness at all frequency settings in step 1 - which makes me think the movie is just recorded that way.

[TABLE="class: settings, width: 692"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="class: text-center"][/TH]
[TH="width: 363"]Setup[/TH]
[TH="width: 187"]Adjustment feature[/TH]
[TH="width: 104"]Setting[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: bg1"]
[TD="class: text-center"]1[/TD]
[TD]AV Receiver or Surround Sound Processor
Performing Digital Bass Management[/TD]
[TD]Recommended Speaker/Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (Hz)[/TD]
[TD]80 Hz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: bg2"]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: bg2"]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

I think my onkyo ht-270 does automatic bass management - so went ahead with this setting.

 

[DarkTactics]

I'm a huge fan of picking up a used set of speakers. There are many audiophiles who constantly upgrade, and allows you to afford a class of speaker you might not be able to otherwise. Always keep that as a consideration. It's hard to replace the thrill of getting thousands of dollars worth of speakers for hundreds.

 

[emsti]

Would be interested in getting your thoughts subwoofer recommendations. I know folks recommended SVS. I was looking at:

1. PB12-NSD (box or cylindrical)
2. other than that I've been reading quite a lot of good stuff on the VTF3 MK4 - pretty good deal on this right now
3. and the Power Sound Audio XV-15

Not sure if there are others in that range?

 

[shadyJ]

The XV15 is going to be the most powerful of that bunch. I think the VTF3 might be close, but I don't think it will quite match the XV15's mid bass output. The PB12 is not on the level of the XV15, it gets killed in measured performance- Audioholics has reviewed and measured both. The PB12 is probably not on the level of the VTF3 either.

 

[Steve81]

The PB12 is not on the level of the XV15, it gets killed in measured performance- Audioholics has reviewed and measured both.

It's an interesting comparison given the "relationship" between the companies. SVS seems to place a very high value on bandwidth linearity (the PB12-NSD is +/- 2.8dB from 20-80Hz versus +/- 7dB for the XV15 in CEA2010 burst test) which puts them at a big disadvantage when evaluating total output capability across the passband.

As I understand it, the disparity is also slightly worse as the XV15 was measured in downfiring orientation (Josh didn't want to remove the base plate), so the XV is probably due another dB or so as the acoustic center of the sub is slightly further away from the mic, and you'd get that back in room.

 

[shadyJ]

I think the importance SVS places on bandwidth linearity is misplaced. Any normal room you place these subs in is going to destroy any flat frequency response anyway. The more headroom you have available, the more room for equalization you have. Although it looks nice in graphs, the decision to equalize the sub via limiter even before the room is even factored doesn't bring about any real world benefits, only disadvantages.

 

[Steve81]

Any normal room you place these subs in is going to destroy any flat frequency response anyway. The more headroom you have available, the more room for equalization you have.

I'd disagree with this notion. If you're going about dealing with FR issues by get an uber-powerful sub and EQing out big suckouts that appear at your listening position, you're going about things in the wrong way, at least IMO. It's much more effective (especially across a wide range of seats) to get multiple subs to deal with that issue. As an example, if the best you can do with placement of a single sub still yields you a 10dB suckout at the MLP, is it more effective to get a single PB13U and EQ it out, or get three PB12-NSDs?

 

[shadyJ]

You have a point, but most people aren't going to have room for three good sized subs, hell, it's a tough enough pill for a lot of people to have a single big sub. Anyway, there is just no point in eliminating headroom for the sake of a flat FR, no one is using these things in an anechoic chamber. Even three subs isn't going to give you perfectly flat response in a normal room.

 

[Steve81]

You have a point, but most people aren't going to have room for three good sized subs, hell, it's a tough enough pill for a lot of people to have a single big sub.

As I understand it, they don't necessarily all have to be big. In my room, the response from my PB13 alone at the listening position is reasonably flat from 20Hz up to 50Hz. Looking at 50Hz to 100Hz, there's a bit more variation in the response, though fortunately still not bad. Still, if it bothered me enough to fix it, I'd expect a couple of much smaller sealed subs could help smooth that range out a bit, and I could set each one low enough in level that they aren't going to get overloaded at higher levels.

Anyway, there is just no point in eliminating headroom for the sake of a flat FR, no one is using these things in an anechoic chamber.

Again, have to disagree here. We're not using these subs in an anechoic chamber, but the FR seen in ground plane measurements still correlates to what we get in room. Why do you suppose Rythmik, Hsu, et al also aim for a reasonably flat FR?

Of course, I'm curious: take the case of the Epik Empire and the LFM-1EX. From 50Hz on up, the Empire has a big output advantage. Epik's issues aside, would you qualify the Empire as being significantly better than the LFM? I'd personally say that unless you've got a small room to boost the low end of the Empire, all that excess output is mostly for naught, but YMMV.

Even three subs isn't going to give you perfectly flat response in a normal room.

Three subs may not give you perfectly flat response right out of the box, but odds are with good placement they'll give you a great starting point to work with.