Speaker Cable Faceoff 2: Introduction & Measurements

[gene]

All I wanted to know from reading the article was - is there a pair of speaker wires in the $100-$200 range that would provide a noticeable difference in audio quality over the ones I have now (monster 10AWG).

Boe, the Face Off II article you are referring to is only the introduction portion. I have not yet completed the full article, but plan on doing so shortly.

The bottom line is all of the cables except perhaps the Goertz and Acoustic Research ones should yield similar sonic results. There is nothing wrong with 10AWG Zip Cord assuming the conductors are closely spaced together such as the ones from Cobalt and AV Cable. Beyond a certain price point with speaker cables ( a few $$$ /ft) you are paying mostly for cosmetics, quality of terminations and product appeal regardless of what any cable vendor would have you believe. Some of the very expensive, well designed cables, will measure better than ordinary zip cord, but in most cases these minor differences in measurements will likely not be detected audibly.

If you have money to burn, you may wish to reinvest it in:
1) An active bass optimizer system for your subs -PEQ type
2) Room treatment
3) DVD/CD Software
4) Nice dinner for the Mrs.

Stay tuned for the Face Off II Conclusion coming soon.

 

[jneutron]

I've read furniture assembly instructions that were easier to follow.

assembly instructions??? Where?? neva hoid of dem...

While I appreciate the authors attempt to share information, try sharing at a level that benefits those of us who do not work at quantum accelerator plant. It would be REALLY nice if all the charts showing the nifty lines would state if higher was better or lower was better for each chart. I'd hate to have to call Steven Hawkins just to get an interpretation of the results posted.

Hey, Hawkins has been wrong...

I understand where you're coming from.. The verbage at the tech end can be pretty cryptic. I've discussed that with Gene...he prefers to keep it at a level where everyone can understand, while I do tend to get a tad on the technical side. I believe he is gearing to do a followup that is a more humane thing to read.

Cheers, John

 

[problem child]

Part of the problem is that Mr. jnuetron likes to tease me and delves into electrophysics concepts that only he, a few other members of Audioholics and Stephen Hawking understand.

Oh great..naysayer over there...problem child over hear...

Neat..

Only velocity propagation (expressed as a percentage) should be high.

Hmmm...in other words, the effective dielectric coefficient should be low???

Perchance....can you provide any evidence to substantiate that claim??? Or has that also been orifice-derived??? (heeee hheeeeeee!!!)

Hi Mudcat..

Here's a chart of velocity of propagation vs DC..

ARggghggh...can't do that if I don't log in first...and I so desired to keep that moniker for this response...

Cheers, John (the problem child)

 

[jneutron]

Here's a chart showing the velocity of propagation vs the inductance and capacitance of the wires. OH, almost forgot...both parameters are per foot.

As it were, the prop v is determined directly by the dielectric constant. And, for a given DC, the L*C product is constant..

If you plot the L and C on this chart, you will see where the prop speed is, and the effective DC of the wires.. Since the bottom line is the speed of light, no cables can be below that. If your particular cable falls on a line, that is it's speed of propagation..Yah, I know..a couple of the cables in the faceoff fall outside the chart...it was a resolution thing..

I will be making a really big chart, and plotting all the cables that Gene tests onto it..I will be using that to correlate actual measurements vs anecdotal, subjective testimonies...(totally unscientific of course, but it's my quarter...isn't it?)

The DC and prop speed are of this nature:

100% is DC=1, 80% is DC=1.57, 60% is DC=2.75, 40% is DC=6.25

Cheers, John

 

[Unregistered]

Clint,

Did you try to invite Analysis-Plus for this? They seem to have on their website proof of current bunching among other stuff. So you think they are conclusive?

Thanks
Oliver

 

[gene]

Did you try to invite Analysis-Plus for this? They seem to have on their website proof of current bunching among other stuff.

We have emailed them a few times but never received a reply. I did look at some of their marketing lit and found it pretty, but questionable on some accounts.

 

[Mudcat]

Hmmm...in other words, the effective dielectric coefficient should be low???)
Perchance....can you provide any evidence to substantiate that claim??? Or has that also been orifice-derived??? (heeee hheeeeeee!!!))

It was oriface derived, but again, as in the past, your charts back up my guesses. Low inductance and Low capacitance show higher velocity propagation. (That whistling sound you just heard was a shot across the bow. I make another SWAG that I'll be in for it now.)

And no you are correct, I totally forgot about the effective dielectric coefficient.

 

[jneutron]

It was oriface derived, but again, as in the past, your charts back up my guesses.

Oriface??? as opposed to orifice?

(tag, you're it)

That whistling sound you just heard was a shot across the bow.

He he...ya killin me...

I make another SWAG that I'll be in for it now.)

"S" being scientific??

And no you are correct, I totally forgot about the effective dielectric coefficient.

Umm, ya got me there...I wasn't aware of saying anything that was "correct", vs something you said that wasn't...and in the context here, I use "effective" DC as what the dc appears to be, not "relative" DC.

What was really neat in my derivations, was that it's possible to determine the effectiveness of the geometry of the wire construct by measuring the L and C, and deriving the effective DC from those two numbers..If you use teflon as the Dielectric, and get an effective dc of 6.25, for example, then you know the geometry is not as good as it can be, the design is not very efficient.. 100% efficient geometries will have the LC point fall directly on the DC curve on the graph.

(oh, btw..the actual equation is L*C=(mu times epsilon)/c²

mu being relative magnetic permeability
epsilon being relative dielectric constant
C being speed of light..

My gut feeling is that the higher the prop speed, the better the wire will be for speaker apps (nuttin to back this feeling with at this time..but I note that prop speed is related to L*C product.) Also, the closer to load characteristic impedance, the better...again, a WAG on my part..just a feeling..

I've resisted working on the metrics you are designing for the relative merit of wires, because I'm wrestling with these gut feelings theoretically..

I'm currently workin on the dipole soundfield technology, and how it relates to the virtual image construct..really fertile ground...fun to wrestle with. and, methinks, totally applicable to deriving how virtual imaging is susceptible to variations in time relationships..

Cheers, John

 

[Mudcat]

Oriface??? as opposed to orifice?

Hey, I was in a hurry to get to the doctors for an MRI. Hmmmmmmm, what do you know about those. If you do, start a new thread.

"S" being scientific???

uhhhhhhhh no.

I'm currently workin on the dipole soundfield technology, and how it relates to the virtual image construct..really fertile ground...fun to wrestle with. and, methinks, totally applicable to deriving how virtual imaging is susceptible to variations in time relationships..

Captain Kirk and Scottie are looking for the guy who stole the magnatron for the transporter beam.

 

[jneutron]

Hey, I was in a hurry to get to the doctors for an MRI. Hmmmmmmm, what do you know about those. If you do, start a new thread.

Basic E/M theory has caused some howls here...(rightly so, I would add)..

And now you want a thread on mri's?? hoo boy. other than the fact that it's persistent mode 2 tesla solenoids, using highly stabilized supers, at 4.5Kelvin, with field quality one part in 10^-9 (shimmed, of course), I have absolutely no knowledge of the technology...

Captain Kirk and Scottie are looking for the guy who stole the magnatron for the transporter beam.

Don't look at me...I was out sick that day..._{(whatever day that was)}

Cheers, John

 

[mtrycrafts]

Boe, the Face Off II article you are referring to is only the introduction portion. I have not yet completed the full article, but plan on doing so shortly.

The bottom line is all of the cables except perhaps the Goertz and Acoustic Research ones should yield similar sonic results. There is nothing wrong with 10AWG Zip Cord assuming the conductors are closely spaced together such as the ones from Cobalt and AV Cable. Beyond a certain price point with speaker cables ( a few $$$ /ft) you are paying mostly for cosmetics, quality of terminations and product appeal regardless of what any cable vendor would have you believe. Some of the very expensive, well designed cables, will measure better than ordinary zip cord, but in most cases these minor differences in measurements will likely not be detected audibly.

If you have money to burn, you may wish to reinvest it in:
1) An active bass optimizer system for your subs -PEQ type
2) Room treatment
3) DVD/CD Software
4) Nice dinner for the Mrs.

Stay tuned for the Face Off II Conclusion coming soon.

I am new here but have been participating elsewhere for some time, so I am not familiar with all the particulars of your face off. I have seen it from time to time as it has been referred elsewhere. Not sure of the references used, if any.

Are you aware of the 1991 AES Journal paper by Fred Davis?

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf

or by RA Grainer
"Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing", Greiner, R.A., JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80,

and the listening test by Larry Greenhill?

"Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?", Greenhill, Larry, Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.

 

[jneutron]

I am new here but have been participating elsewhere for some time, so I am not familiar with all the particulars of your face off. I have seen it from time to time as it has been referred elsewhere. Not sure of the references used, if any.

Are you aware of the 1991 AES Journal paper by Fred Davis?

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf

or by RA Grainer
"Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing", Greiner, R.A., JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80,

and the listening test by Larry Greenhill?

"Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?", Greenhill, Larry, Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.

Boy, they're lettin everybody nowadays aren't they...and you are...who???

Hi Mrty, and welcome...

Nice link, btw...printing it out now, adding it to the ol' archive books..gonna research the references also.

Now, however...I have a really big beef with Gene...

Um, Gene?? howcomez mrty comes in, and first post, he's a "registered user"...but I was an "audiophyte"....Hmmmm?

This is no fair...I protest this biased and unfair treatment....

Cheers, John

 

[Rob Babcock]

Ah, the famous/infamous Mtrycrafts! I think some of his credits transferred from the many other forums! We have a legendary rabblerouser in our midsts!

You should find this place to your liking, Mtrycrafts- definately a haven from the Snake Oil Forums that pervade the net now. Welcome!

 

[Mudcat]

Hi Mtrycrafts,

I'm Mudcat.

This is getting like AA. I'm off the wagon for good new!

So, your a legendary rabblerouser.

Could you enter some juicy tidbits over is the whatever forum it is. There is a thread about doing a little bio. Rob started it I believe.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Um, Gene?? howcomez mrty comes in, and first post, he's a "registered user"...but I was an "audiophyte"....Hmmmm?

This is no fair...I protest this biased and unfair treatment....

Cheers, John

Well, when I enter a new place, I try to read the rules
It seemed best to register now than later. Options are open in case the new dictatorship is serious about the way they conduct exchanges.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ah, the famous/infamous Mtrycrafts! I think some of his credits transferred from the many other forums! We have a legendary rabblerouser in our midsts!

You should find this place to your liking, Mtrycrafts- definately a haven from the Snake Oil Forums that pervade the net now. Welcome!

Thanks for the welcome wagon mat

Yes, it seems that dumbing down the public is what the marketeers want so they have a bigger advantage over the poor souls.

I hate the back of the bus and this place, highly recommended by a number of your residents, seems hospitable.
I don't mind snake oil forums as long as I can exchange with the peddlers of the oil but when my hads are tied behind my back and orderd to the back of the bus, I don't need that anymore.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi Mtrycrafts,

I'm Mudcat.

Good to meet you

This is getting like AA. I'm off the wagon for good new!

For a moment I thought you ment the other AA

So, your a legendary rabblerouser.

That is what some would say. Others, I remember fondly from many moons ago, called me something like the hart of Gallileo. I like to keep a candle burning in the audioworld of darkness knowing that Carl Sagan would have done if he wqas an audio enthusiast

Could you enter some juicy tidbits over is the whatever forum it is. There is a thread about doing a little bio. Rob started it I believe.

Not sure I follow you on this. My old forum? Bio where?

 

[Audioholics]

Have an "official" welcome Mtrycrafts. haha

 

[mtrycrafts]

Have an "official" welcome Mtrycrafts. haha

Well, if it is official it must be good. Thanks all.

 

[wd90125]

Looking at both Speaker Cable Face Off's and their measurements, it appears that the Cobalt cables have the best test results overall. Is this a fair assessment? If so, why are Cobalt Cables never mentioned or reviewed in audio magazines? I only found one other review on this brand, yet their were 4 or 5 reviews for the River Speaker Cables and Gene is using River Cables for his Reference system. The Rivers had a much higher CP which I read was the most important measure out of the three utilized.