Sound Quality

[davo]

Agree, there are no substitutes to doing some serious auditoning. I would also add that he should bring his own CD's and make sure when doing sound quality comparison listening, level match the receivers/prepro that are being compared, and use the pure direct mode to ensure the tone control stuff does not come into play.

Good call Peng, I missed that point! You've got to have good quality music thats been well produced, not any of the doof doof ripped to MP3 @96kb/s. I remember listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn when I was demoing some receivers, which I am quite familiar with and in my opinion very well produced.

 

[Nuglets]

Bingo! That's exactly what I was talking about. changing one resistors or caps value will allow more or less of a given frequency to pass so why wouldn't one design sound different to another. And maybe one design house tend to sound different than another. In an amp the tone stack must be "voiced" a certain way.

Because a good amp is designed with transparency in mind. If the amp has the tendency to boost or cut certain frequencies(ie: color the sound) then it probably wouldn't fall into the 'well designed amplifier' category. It is the job of the tone controls on the Preamp/Receiver to change the frequency response and the amplifier should reproduce it as accurately as possible without adding it's own colorations.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Bingo! That's exactly what I was talking about. changing one resistors or caps value will allow more or less of a given frequency to pass so why wouldn't one design sound different to another. And maybe one design house tend to sound different than another. In an amp the tone stack must be "voiced" a certain way.

You need a lot of variables in an amp to cause such a change at the output terminals.

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

Different designs concluding in a common end, produces transparent sound.

And, here is just one such example:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just get the box with the features you need, shop for the best deal, and kick back and enjoy the music!

Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

Precisely The extra worrying will just detract from the enjoyment
I rather listen to the software I chose than equipment.

 

[PENG]

You need a lot of variables in an amp to cause such a change at the output terminals.

I agree, to say an amp is "voiced" is a stretch. I do think that while specifications such as input/output impedance, damping factor, THD, TIMD, even output power, are useful, frequency response such as 10 to 50,000 Hz +1, -3 dB is not (relatively speaking). It would be more useful if they say 20 to 20,000 Hz +/-1 dB at any point between 0 and rated output. This way, manufacturers would have less room to "voice" their products for marketing purposes and still meet the generally acceptable 20 to 20,000 Hz freq resp spec. For those who like a particular voice, they can always play with the build in/add on tone controls/adjustments. Regarding distortion, some people will argue that all harmonics are not equal in terms of their effects on the listener. That is true, but if we cannot hear distortion below 0.1% THD (Total HD), then logically the contents of the harmonics whether they are 2nd 3rd, 5th,....nth should not matter as long as their total add up to <0.1%. It may seem that we are getting off topic but I think it is important that we talk about the reasons why we may or may not hear a difference between brands of receivers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It may seem that we are getting off topic but I think it is important that we talk about the reasons why we may or may not hear a difference between brands of receivers.

Yes, precisely. We need to get into the human psychoacoustic capability. That will certainly shed light on what component differences then become audible under what conditions.
Back to FR, if that Fr variation is over a broad spectrum compared to another component, then a very small difference becomes audible compared to the same deviation over a smaller band. I found what I was hoping to:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_crit.htm

Psychoacoustics should be discussed more as it is the basis of designs. Perceptual coding was based on this, so was most everything else. Yet, it is rarely comes up. Perhaps, it is because knowing the limitations of hearing, 'golden ears' would have little to argue about? LOL

 

[RickC3C4]

Rick,

Let's say that i have listened to these receivers and in my opinion the yamaha is a warmer sounding unit and the onkyo is brighter.... Then, let's say davo is convinced the yamaha line to have a lively upper end and thinner bass and the onkyo to exhibit a smoother all around sound.... Peng, on the other hand, seems to think the pioneer to have sweet, detailed midrange.... How would YOU process this information? Sure, these are hypothetical situations, but the point of it all is, even with input from knowledgeable people with experience with these products, davo is giving good advise when he says to go LISTEN.... Trust your ears. If you find that you agree with general consensus thats great.... The whole point of this forum is to call upon the experience and opinions of others, but this subject would be a tuffy without your own input.

Rollinrocker,

What you said is absolutely true. Each and every one of those examples would be accurate and true as perceived by that individual person. In respect of the fact that I do not know anyone on this list personally I cannot and should not take any one person's advice. My whole point of asking a question like this in a format like this is to gain a statistical picture. Trust me when I say I also recognize the fact that because I don't know any of the participants to this thread I don't put a lot of weight behind any one person's opinion, I have no idea who they are, I could be listening to a tone deaf 13-year-old for all I know. If I believed everything I read so far a JVC amp with a low distortion rating should sound exactly like my Mark Levinson amps. So yes, LISTENING is the bottom line before buying but my intent here was to narrow down the possibilities and reduce the amount of time traveling all over town.

 

[RickC3C4]

Agree, there are no substitutes to doing some serious auditoning. I would also add that he should bring his own CD's and make sure when doing sound quality comparison listening, level match the receivers/prepro that are being compared, and use the pure direct mode to ensure the tone control stuff does not come into play.

Peng,

Not to worry, I've got that taken care of. I've been using the same disc for the last 16 years for every equipment audition I've done. It may be old but I'm intimately familiar with each and every nuance and exactly what the disc should sound like. I also make sure all tone controls are set to neutral and every level is matched as closely as possible. Thanks, your advice is excellent nonetheless.

 

[T2T]

BS

I just don't buy it. I know there are people that do, but I don't. If you compare any of the mentioned brands with equal power, they will sound very similar. VERY.

Well, I think I've owned about 12 different receivers now. Does this make me an expert? Not really, but I would consider myself extremely well informed. I will state, however, that each receiver has its own "signature" sound. Some receivers pair better with some speakers than other receivers.

Believe as you will, but my ears tell me something different.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, I think I've owned about 12 different receivers now. Does this make me an expert? Not really, but I would consider myself extremely well informed. I will state, however, that each receiver has its own "signature" sound. Some receivers pair better with some speakers than other receivers.

Believe as you will, but my ears tell me something different.

And, your brain may tell you something different from the signals the ears are trying to transmit. That is a fact. Human perception, the brains interpretation of things, may not be reality; again, well demonstrated.
Belief should not be part of this. What can be demonstrated does, however.

You may have had all those different components, but how many did you really compare with bias removed forcibly from the equation? That is a levels matched, DBT protocol?
Time and time again, such results show null results when components are operated withing their design limits and amps have low output impedance.
Just a quick example, or two:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

or, your google translator helps

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

 

[kdetlor]

I suggest that with all the problems I'm having that you NOT get the onkyo.