Sound Quality

[mtrycrafts]

It seems to me that these receivers should sound almost identical. What is the distortion rating for if not for ensuring that input=output. If one receiver or another sounds different, then at least one of them is distorting.

More yes than no These components operating withing their design limits would sound the same, levels matched and bias controlled.
Historical DBT would support this, one being here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

But, distortion is not necessarily why they sound different
Usually, if would be a frequency response difference.


I can completely understand how some amps can't handle large transients above thier rated power but within rated power they should sound identical.

Well, if their output impedances are similarly low, then it will be tough to differentiate them as per above conditions.


If distortion ratings are not measuring this then they are a problem.

Bias, level mismatch

Check this out; use translator mode on google:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

 

[Geno]

Just my 2cents worth: I currently own 4 receivers (really oughta sell 2): a Denon 3805 & 4306, a Yamaha, and an Integra. To me, they all sound good, although slightly different. I also have a 30 year old Sansui AU-9500 Integrated that I can't bear to part with, and think it sound good, too. There have been a lot of good points made in this thread, but some of the articles I've read about people in double-blind tests not being able to tell the difference between a $300 Pioneer and a $10K Jules Futterman Amp just tell me that most of this agonizing about sound quality is pure wishful thinking on our part. Just get the box with the features you need, shop for the best deal, and kick back and enjoy the music!

Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

 

[yettitheman]

Totally disregarding surround capability, my old Pioneer SX-626 and my newer Yamaha DSP-A1000 run circles around my current Onkyo and my recently sold Yamaha...
Yeah, the Yamaha I sold was wimpy. The A1000 isn't

 

[Tomorrow]

From experience I can tell you that most any mainstream (Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, HK, etc.) receiver sounds the same as the others at a given price point. Is a Big Bacon Classic different than a Whopper? Flip a coin, then hold your breath.

I usually sell Marantz receivers to my customers. I think they offer the best compromise between great sound, price, and features like HDMI switching. Bottom line, you can't go wrong with any of the brands you listed. Pick the one that fits your budget the best and enjoy.

Interesting post, this. I thought I recalled something else you said. Like the following. So which is it, ITI ... Onkyo, Marantz, or any flavor of burger?

I have always been impressed with Onkyo from a value and quality stand point. Two models to look at are the TX-SR703 and the TX-SR803 (adds HDMI switching and more WPC). I just put the 703 in my bedroom and replaced an old 787 with the 803 in a front room theater and really like them both. They're each powering 8" Proficient LCR in ceiling speakers and seem to do really well. They both can be had online for under $1000 easily. Just my two cents.

 

[baseman]

So then am I to understand that the signal just passes through the amp stages unmolested like water through a hose? Is there no pre amp voicing involved with Hi Fi audio designs?

I'm fairly new to this area but I come from working on tube guitar amps and even if you want it to be a super clean machine (like audio gear) there is still the selection of pre amp circuits, components and their values to deal with that alters the signal and adds coloration, it's unavoidable. And the designers personal tastes and perceptions play into this as well.

 

[moverton]

So then am I to understand that the signal just passes through the amp stages unmolested like water through a hose? Is there no pre amp voicing involved with Hi Fi audio designs?

I'm fairly new to this area but I come from working on tube guitar amps and even if you want it to be a super clean machine (like audio gear) there is still the selection of pre amp circuits, components and their values to deal with that alters the signal and adds coloration, it's unavoidable. And the designers personal tastes and perceptions play into this as well.

That's my question as well. I was hoping we could get one of the super experts (the guys with the ocilloscopes and EE degrees) to address it. Is the whole circuit from preamp to amp in the distortion rating? Seems like that would be the ultimate goal, transparent amplification of the input signal. If they measure distortion only through the amp stage then what good is the measurement? If the preamp can do what it likes then perfect amp stages are moot.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So then am I to understand that the signal just passes through the amp stages unmolested like water through a hose? Is there no pre amp voicing involved with Hi Fi audio designs?

Yes, you understand correctly how well designed components are designed. But, it is also easy to design euphonics into a component.
If that is done, what is the voicing standard? To what reference? Whose speakers? Whose room? No, as soon as voicing enters components, you create chaos, like a yardstick that is anything but a yard long and each stick is a different dimension.

I'm fairly new to this area but I come from working on tube guitar amps and even if you want it to be a super clean machine (like audio gear) there is still the selection of pre amp circuits, components and their values to deal with that alters the signal and adds coloration, it's unavoidable. And the designers personal tastes and perceptions play into this as well.

Well, maybe coloration is the goal with tubed guitar amps?

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's my question as well. I was hoping we could get one of the super experts (the guys with the ocilloscopes and EE degrees) to address it. Is the whole circuit from preamp to amp in the distortion rating?

It is in a receiver.

Seems like that would be the ultimate goal, transparent amplification of the input signal.

That is the goal with the well designed ones


If they measure distortion only through the amp stage then what good is the measurement? If the preamp can do what it likes then perfect amp stages are moot.

In that case, it just about would be. But, audio design has been around for a few days now and think they have a pretty good handle on it.

 

[moverton]

But, distortion is not necessarily why they sound different
Usually, if would be a frequency response difference.

I think we must have different definitions of distortion. Yours might be the accepted one in this application context, not sure. But to me, if the waveform is a different shape than was given as input, then it is distorted.

 

[moverton]

That's my question as well. I was hoping we could get one of the super experts (the guys with the ocilloscopes and EE degrees) to address it. Is the whole circuit from preamp to amp in the distortion rating?

It is in a receiver.

Seems like that would be the ultimate goal, transparent amplification of the input signal.

That is the goal with the well designed ones


If they measure distortion only through the amp stage then what good is the measurement? If the preamp can do what it likes then perfect amp stages are moot.

In that case, it just about would be. But, audio design has been around for a few days now and think they have a pretty good handle on it.

I'm not offended by the sarcasm but really don't understand the response.
There is so much confusion and misinformation surrounding audio that I think it is worth cutting out the bad stuff and getting definitions straight. I'm not worried that "they" have a handle on it (i assume they = manufacturers). I'm more worried the buyers don't have a handle on it.

Even on this board full of smart people with much more than average experience with audio, I don't see a consensus answer to the base question.

"Will two receivers that are not clipping and have the same low distortion rating sound the same?"

 

[Davemcc]

Interesting post, this. I thought I recalled something else you said. Like the following. So which is it, ITI ... Onkyo, Marantz, or any flavor of burger?

I think I get what he's saying. Get the best burger that fits your price point. If you want cheese, lettuce, pickles, onions etc, but it drives the burger past your price point, then get the other burger that has the toppings you want in your price point. If you can do without the lettuce and cheese and still afford the best burger, go with it.

It would seem that he is impressed with Onkyo's quality and choice of toppings at that price point. The other brands, while of similar quality, may not offer pickles or lettuce at a given price, but they might have mushrooms and gravy. So pick a burger that has what you want, knowing that it's what you want.

Did I get that right?

 

[zumbo]

I think I get what he's saying. Get the best burger that fits your price point. If you want cheese, lettuce, pickles, onions etc, but it drives the burger past your price point, then get the other burger that has the toppings you want in your price point. If you can do without the lettuce and cheese and still afford the best burger, go with it.

It would seem that he is impressed with Onkyo's quality and choice of toppings at that price point. The other brands, while of similar quality, may not offer pickles or lettuce at a given price, but they might have mushrooms and gravy. So pick a burger that has what you want, knowing that it's what you want.

Did I get that right?

Perfect! I mean, perfect!

 

[davo]

You guys should read the original post again, I think the thread is getting slightly off topic.

I am interested in comments regarding the sound quality aspects of midpriced (less than $1000) receivers. Specifically I'm looking at Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha. I'm not going to list model numbers because I don't want this to be another "which model receiver should I get" post. Plus the model numbers aren't important as I can find a model in any of these brands with the connections and features I need.

It seems to me that RickC3C4 isn't interested in what 'extras' or 'features' he can get for the price point(with regard to this specific thread) but SOUND QUALITY The sound quality would be very similar in relation to the 3 brands he mentioned, even though they can sound slightly different to each other. I'm not saying one sounds wrong and the other sounds right, but what makes one more appealing than the other is up to the listeners ear.

Now before anyone gets carried away with their rebutle, go to a good H/T store where they have multiple receivers hooked up to a couple of speakers and a single source and LISTEN It was fairly obvious to me that you can here a difference between them, be it a minor difference.

Now, bring it on!!

 

[PENG]

Now before anyone gets carried away with their rebutle, go to a good H/T store where they have multiple receivers hooked up to a couple of speakers and a single source and LISTEN It was fairly obvious to me that you can here a difference between them, be it a minor difference.

Now, bring it on!!

I have done that more than once and I must admit while I thought I heard some differences, there is no way I could have identified one from the others in a DBT. I am talking about comparing mid level receivers, even separates, matched with fairly high resolution speakers such as mid level KEF, Paradigm, Energy products. If you find it obvious then good for you but I think there will be no shortage of people (espeically those wives) who wouldn't find the difference obvious.

Next time you do such comparison listening in a H.T. store, would you please ask the sales consultant to switch amps/receivers without telling you and see if you could tell the difference easily. I am just curious, that's all.

 

[PENG]

I think we must have different definitions of distortion. Yours might be the accepted one in this application context, not sure. But to me, if the waveform is a different shape than was given as input, then it is distorted.

I think mtrycrafts was talking about distortion that is <0.08% or so, typical of what one can expect from receivers such as the Denon 380X, Yamaha 2X00, Marantz 7X00 and Pioneer Elite models.

Of course you are right about the fact that if the waveform of the output is not exactly the same as the source signal then the output is distorted, but most experts (not me, an E.E. degree does not always qualify one as expert in the audio field) tend to think that people in general cannot detect distortion less than 0.1% THD/IMD, regardless of the order of the harmonics (though some harmonics are more pleasant to the ears than others).
As to frequency response that mtrycrafts cited, I have to agree with him. Many of us who has no hearing loss, can hear frequencies within the 20 to 20,000 Hz range, so it is possible that if the designers of certain brand decided to boost or suppress certain frequency ranges within the 20-20KHz, they may succeed in manufacturing receivers/amps that would appear to sound a little warmer, or brighter than those designed to simply amplify the signals linearly regardless of the frequency of the source signals. In other words, you can theorectically hear differences between receivers/amps that produce 0% THD/IMD (i.e. the waveforms are undistorted), if the difference between their frequency response characteristics are significant enough. To experience such differences, all you have to do is to play with the tone controls, loudness controls, equalizers, filters etc.

 

[moverton]

As to frequency response that mtrycrafts cited, I have to agree with him. Many of us who has no hearing loss, can hear frequencies within the 20 to 20,000 Hz range, so it is possible that if the designers of certain brand decided to boost or suppress certain frequency ranges within the 20-20KHz, they may succeed in manufacturing receivers/amps that would appear to sound a little warmer, or brighter than those designed to simply amplify the signals linearly regardless of the frequency of the source signals. In other words, you can theorectically hear differences between receivers/amps that produce 0% THD/IMD (i.e. the waveforms are undistorted), if the difference between their frequency response characteristics are significant enough. To experience such differences, all you have to do is to play with the tone controls, loudness controls,
equalizers, filters etc.

I think that is one part of my actual question. If a receiver can introduce a bias towards one frequency or another, why doesn't that bias show up in the distortion measurement. It probably does not, but that just tells me we should have another better measurement that does look for that error.
To me the test should be to input a signal (let's say on the analog cd input), set the tone controls at dead center, hook up an 8 ohm load, input a varying waveform like typical music, and graph the output voltage. If you scale it down to the input voltage it seems like they should match. Any deviation would be summed up and reported as distortion.
If your measuring the accuracy of the digital inputs you can just compare to the digital graph supplied as input.
Seems like a pretty simple, but effective test of the entire system. How do they measure distortion if not like this?
Maybe we can come up with a new test called System-Accuracy™ and sell the rights to use it.

 

[rollinrocker]

Rick,

Let's say that i have listened to these receivers and in my opinion the yamaha is a warmer sounding unit and the onkyo is brighter, seeming to have more detail in the treble, but a little harder sound nonetheless. Then, let's say davo is convinced the yamaha line to have a lively upper end and thinner bass and the onkyo in comparison to exhibit a smoother all around sound, with a more defined bottom end. Peng, on the other hand, seems to think the pioneer to have sweet, detailed midrange as opposed to the other two receiver lines, but the yamaha, he may surmise, to have more command of the bass. How would YOU process this information? Sure, these are hypothetical situations, but the point of it all is, even with input from knowledgeable people with experience with these products, davo is giving good advise when he says to go LISTEN. Seventeen people may tell you a certain tv has the best color, with the most detailed picture, but if you demo the tv and find the colors oversaturated and the picture soft, would you be happy living with it? Trust your ears. If you find that you agree with general consensus thats great, as most of us feel better about a purchase when it is validated by others. The whole point of this forum is to call upon the experience and opinions of others, but this subject would be a tuffy without your own input.

 

[PENG]

I think that is one part of my actual question. If a receiver can introduce a bias towards one frequency or another, why doesn't that bias show up in the distortion measurement. It probably does not, but that just tells me we should have another better measurement that does look for that error.

That's because a bias towards one frequency or another is not defined as distortion as long as it amplifies the signals faithfully. It just amplifies a frequency more, relative to another. If the waveform changes in shape then it is distortion but if the shape remains the same but the magnitude changes, then the signal is just being amplified. If you were to define a same shape waveform with increased magnitude as distortion, then any amplified signals will be at 100% distortion. Just because you amplify a particular frequency more than you do with another does not mean you introduce a distortion.

In regard to the lack of measurements that reflects amp performance (but not distortion), you are quite right, manufacturers would specify something like 20 to 20,000 Hz +/- 3 dB but it does not provide you with a curve (should be flat if the amp does not introduce any bias) that shows the amplifiers gain over the entire bandwidth. To get to see that curve you would have to read the independent reviews by Audioholics, S&V, HT mag, Stereophile etc., and hope they have reviewed the products you are interested in and included the lab test results in their reviews. Hope this helps.

 

[PENG]

Rick,

Let's say that i have listened to these receivers and in my opinion the yamaha is a warmer sounding unit and the onkyo is brighter, seeming to have more detail in the treble, but a little harder sound nonetheless. Then, let's say davo is convinced the yamaha line to have a lively upper end and thinner bass and the onkyo in comparison to exhibit a smoother all around sound, with a more defined bottom end. Peng, on the other hand, seems to think the pioneer to have sweet, detailed midrange as opposed to the other two receiver lines, but the yamaha, he may surmise, to have more command of the bass. How would YOU process this information? Sure, these are hypothetical situations, but the point of it all is, even with input from knowledgeable people with experience with these products, davo is giving good advise when he says to go LISTEN. Seventeen people may tell you a certain tv has the best color, with the most detailed picture, but if you demo the tv and find the colors oversaturated and the picture soft, would you be happy living with it? Trust your ears. If you find that you agree with general consensus thats great, as most of us feel better about a purchase when it is validated by others. The whole point of this forum is to call upon the experience and opinions of others, but this subject would be a tuffy without your own input.

Agree, there are no substitutes to doing some serious auditoning. I would also add that he should bring his own CD's and make sure when doing sound quality comparison listening, level match the receivers/prepro that are being compared, and use the pure direct mode to ensure the tone control stuff does not come into play.

 

[baseman]

That's because a bias towards one frequency or another is not defined as distortion as long as it amplifies the signals faithfully. It just amplifies a frequency more, relative to another. If the waveform changes in shape then it is distortion but if the shape remains the same but the magnitude changes, then the signal is just being amplified. If you were to define a same shape waveform with increased magnitude as distortion, then any amplified signals will be at 100% distortion. Just because you amplify a particular frequency more than you do with another does not mean you introduce a distortion.

.

Bingo! That's exactly what I was talking about. changing one resistors or caps value will allow more or less of a given frequency to pass so why wouldn't one design sound different to another. And maybe one design house tend to sound different than another. In an amp the tone stack must be "voiced" a certain way.