Site for sensible discussion of technical issues surrounding GOM oil leak.

[ArthurPE]

the Flow Rate Group just released revised qtys
20k to 40k bbls/day prior to the cut/cap operation
avg 25-30k, >25 times BP's est of 1k/day...revised later to 5k/day...

after the cut a 20% increase to ~25k to 50k bbls/day...
avg ~ 30-35k...of which 15 is being captured...
so 15-20k bbls/day still going into the Gulf
an exxon Valdez ~every 15 days...maybe less...
it has already pumped 5 to 6 times the Exxon Valdez qty...

one member of the group said it may be as high as 100k/day...

they requested additonal testing from BP, dye injection to more accurately measure fluid velocity...BP has yet to agree

2 notes:
BP is an independent foreign company and does not have to capitulate to our demands...juristiction is 'iffy', a simple request could be in court for years

the rig/leak is in international waters...

 

[highfigh]

does anyonre really think big oil bush/cheney would be responding with any more urgency? their lax policies caused it...

what can the government do? there is no 'national oil company' with the resources, both personnel and equipment to deal with this...
what would you do? send in the Marines? that worked out well in Iraq and 'Stan

if the government gets involved, they are criticized, socialism
if they don't, they are inept, they don't 'care' enough
damnedf they do, damned if they don't

if the largest companies in the world, with massive quantities of expertise can't tackle the problem, what do you expect the government to do?

they are in the same frustrating boat as us, at the mercy of big oil...

So, it's OK if the Obama administration can't do anything to help but Bush had a new one chewed in his rump for Katrina, when the state needing aid is required to contact FEMA, right? Can't someone be at least a bit objective about this kind of crap? This admin will do everything in their power to look like they're doing everything right and the last guy effed everything up. Obama doesn't know how to deal with much more than "community organizing".

I read a post from someone who said their job is to fly the ROVs at this site and he claims that BP is doing everything possible to fix this but the media is skewing it every way they can.

As far as your comment about the Marines, try to remember the oil spill isn't a war and, well, never mind. You wouldn't understand.

 

[ArthurPE]

it's not 'OK', it's the reality of the situation
bush was in the same boat...although he did have more applicable resources at his disposal: USCG, USA CoE, etc.
The government has no petroleum engineers or deep sea oil production equipment repair capability...

objective? you should be asking yourself that one, you have a hard-on for the President and it's clouding your understanding of what can and can't be done...what would you have him do?

ok, so the Marines won't help...what USG agency will?
what do you propose they do?

it is apparent I understand far more than you...I wouldn't expect bush to stop it anymore than Obama, they don't have the tools at thier disposal...wrap your head around that one

So, it's OK if the Obama administration can't do anything to help but Bush had a new one chewed in his rump for Katrina, when the state needing aid is required to contact FEMA, right? Can't someone be at least a bit objective about this kind of crap? This admin will do everything in their power to look like they're doing everything right and the last guy effed everything up. Obama doesn't know how to deal with much more than "community organizing".

I read a post from someone who said their job is to fly the ROVs at this site and he claims that BP is doing everything possible to fix this but the media is skewing it every way they can.

As far as your comment about the Marines, try to remember the oil spill isn't a war and, well, never mind. You wouldn't understand.

 

[highfigh]

For one thing there is overwhelming evidence that cleaning marshes does more harm than good. If you try to clean them they never recover, if you leave them alone they recover in three to four years.

Today's figures indicate the flow from that pipe is colossal. That is what you would expect with 450 atmospheres minus 150 atmospheres for the water column, so 300 atmospheres of forward pressure coming up a 26" pipe.

There's a creek in the middle of a boulevard in the neighborhood where I grew up and in the middle '60s, a local oil storage tank ruptured, releasing over 100K gallons of crude. Thick, nasty, sticky crude oil. We walked out of the house that morning and the smell was the same as if they were laying asphalt on our street. We got to the creek and it was more than a foot over the normal water level. Once that ran into the larger creek downstream and into the Milwaukee River, the level dropped and the banks were covered with the thickest of what ran through. Less than a year later, it looked pretty normal, with occasional black blobs floating out of the sediment on the bottom or an oily sheen from the water disturbing the oil. The water had new vegetation, frogs and small turtles or fish could be seen and the smell was gone. 40-some years later, there's no evidence at all. I imagine that if someone dragged a rake over the bottom and it went deep enough, something might float up but if someone came along and looked at it, there's no way they would know what happened.

 

[TLS Guy]

does anyonre really think big oil bush/cheney would be responding with any more urgency? their lax policies caused it...

what can the government do? there is no 'national oil company' with the resources, both personnel and equipment to deal with this...
what would you do? send in the Marines? that worked out well in Iraq and 'Stan

if the government gets involved, they are criticized, socialism
if they don't, they are inept, they don't 'care' enough
damnedf they do, damned if they don't

if the largest companies in the world, with massive quantities of expertise can't tackle the problem, what do you expect the government to do?

they are in the same frustrating boat as us, at the mercy of big oil...

A strong response should have been mounted from the start.

They should have commandeered every dredger and barge right along the coast, and secured fill.

They should have diked the vulnerable areas, especially the marshes. We could have had most of it built by now with a vigorous effort.

Instead we have had miserable skimmers and now vacuum cleaners with 2" openings. Pathetic.

To top it off we have grandstanding all round. We have a criminal probe started and farcical hearings before the cause of this event is known. When all the facts are known then you can have hearings and think about involving prosecutors. What we have now is a complete waste of effort.

 

[highfigh]

it's not 'OK', it's the reality of the situation
bush was in the same boat...although he did have more applicable resources at his disposal: USCG, USA CoE, etc.
The government has no petroleum engineers or deep sea oil production equipment repair capability...

objective? you should be asking yourself that one, you have a hard-on for the President and it's clouding your understanding of what can and can't be done...what would you have him do?

ok, so the Marines won't help...what USG agency will?
what do you propose they do?

The government contracts with engineering firms all the time- what do you mean they don't have the resources? Who the hell do you think it is that builds all of our military bases- gremlins? They can have any firm that's qualified do the job. The comment I heard today is that the cost is too high. That, from an administration that has spent more money in a couple of years than any other. Hmmm.

I can guarantee that I have no hard-on for any President and definitely not this one. I didn't want him in that office because of his tremendous lack of useful experience, in the first place.

"it is apparent I understand far more than you...I wouldn't expect bush to stop it anymore than Obama, they don't have the tools at thier disposal...wrap your head around that one"

Well, aren't you special? You're also wrong. They can have any tools at their disposal- they just have to want to fix the problem. Obama poking his finger in the sand was a stupidly pathetic gesture and according to people who live there, they do nothing on land when the cameras are off but as soon as that little red light goes on, they leap to action. Great work. Pointing fingers and talking about finding out whose *** to kick is a great way to look like a complete A-hole.

 

[highfigh]

A strong response should have been mounted from the start.

They should have commandeered every dredger and barge right along the coast, and secured fill.

They should have diked the vulnerable areas, especially the marshes. We could have had most of it built by now with a vigorous effort.

Instead we have had miserable skimmers and now vacuum cleaners with 2" openings. Pathetic.

To top it off we have grandstanding all round. We have a criminal probe started and farcical hearings before the cause of this event is known. When all the facts are known then you can have hearings and think about involving prosecutors. What we have now is a complete waste of effort.

Commandeered? Why? I keep hearing they had hundreds of boats that were volunteered and the government refused their offers.

You're right- they went out with a few Shop Vacs and thought they could handle it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Commandeered? Why? I keep hearing they had hundreds of boats that were volunteered and the government refused their offers.

You're right- they went out with a few Shop Vacs and thought they could handle it.

I think in a grave emergency command and control is better if vital equipment is put under a central authority for the duration.

 

[ArthurPE]

they have done all that and more...

this is unprecedented...perhaps they should have hired you?

it's easy to second guess from the sidelines...it seems the people with 'all the ideas' never want the job, lol

A strong response should have been mounted from the start.

They should have commandeered every dredger and barge right along the coast, and secured fill.

They should have diked the vulnerable areas, especially the marshes. We could have had most of it built by now with a vigorous effort.

Instead we have had miserable skimmers and now vacuum cleaners with 2" openings. Pathetic.

To top it off we have grandstanding all round. We have a criminal probe started and farcical hearings before the cause of this event is known. When all the facts are known then you can have hearings and think about involving prosecutors. What we have now is a complete waste of effort.

 

[TLS Guy]

they have done all that and more...

this is unprecedented...perhaps they should have hired you?

it's easy to second guess from the sidelines...it seems the people with 'all the ideas' never want the job, lol

The bureaucracy got in the way big time, and diking was only started last week. That useless organization, the corps of engineers, wanted environmental impact studies. Heaven help us!

 

[ArthurPE]

what would you do?
all the companies specializing in this work, are working the problem...

who did you hear the comment 'the cost is too high' from, your head?
that was never said...you are making stuff up to make the admin look bad...
especially when all costs will be paid by BP and they have already been sent bills with 30 day payment deadlines...

Obama's lack of experience? he had as much, or more than bush...
and far more successful in nature...again, your bias is showing

you mean like 'bring them on', 'dead or alive' or 'mission accomplished'?
he's human, he's frustrated, it shows...

the only one 'wrong' here is you...you have no realistic understanding of the situation so you just take shots at Obama and make stuff up...now THAT's pathetic

The government contracts with engineering firms all the time- what do you mean they don't have the resources? Who the hell do you think it is that builds all of our military bases- gremlins? They can have any firm that's qualified do the job. The comment I heard today is that the cost is too high. That, from an administration that has spent more money in a couple of years than any other. Hmmm.

I can guarantee that I have no hard-on for any President and definitely not this one. I didn't want him in that office because of his tremendous lack of useful experience, in the first place.

"it is apparent I understand far more than you...I wouldn't expect bush to stop it anymore than Obama, they don't have the tools at thier disposal...wrap your head around that one"

Well, aren't you special? You're also wrong. They can have any tools at their disposal- they just have to want to fix the problem. Obama poking his finger in the sand was a stupidly pathetic gesture and according to people who live there, they do nothing on land when the cameras are off but as soon as that little red light goes on, they leap to action. Great work. Pointing fingers and talking about finding out whose *** to kick is a great way to look like a complete A-hole.

 

[ArthurPE]

The bureaucracy got in the way big time, and diking was only started last week. That useless organization, the corps of engineers, wanted environmental impact studies. Heaven help us!

the CoE was not created by Obama

the dyking is the proverbial 'dutch boy and the finger', it's pointless
it's a visable, feel good gesture, but that's about it...

the impact studies make sense...perhaps this futile gesture may make things worse? unless you ask the question you'll never know...

 

[ArthurPE]

for all you guys who expect Obama to swim to the bottom of the Gulf and put a cork in it consider:

the lax regs that lead to this were all put in place by the last admin

he's inherited 2 losing propositon wars, with their massive costs
and the 2 associated corrupt, inept governments
btw: Obama has killed far more sr al quaida leaders in 1 year than bush did in 8...

he's inherited an economy that has been tanking for 10 years...
a budget deficit caused by the 2 said wars combined with tax cuts

Iran was allowed to develop their nuke capabilities for the previous admins 8 years, unchecked...all talk, no action

the same for NK, they actually were testing weapons under the last admin

it's not like this is all he's got to deal with...
you have unrealistic expectations which are generated by your hate for the President...
in your heart, what good was accomplished in the previous 8 years...
we are still suffering from that admins follies...

if anybody is to blame, it's BP and the management on the rig who ignored warnings and took shortcuts and risks...
BP will never get another dime of mine...I hope this breaks them, and all assets they have are bought up cheap by US companies...

 

[highfigh]

I think in a grave emergency command and control is better if vital equipment is put under a central authority for the duration.

I don't think the Federal government needs to control it but someone, somewhere, has to know how to contain oil spills and the government should have them in their Rolodex. Personally, I think all of the oil companies that drill wells/have them drilled should be required to have a plan in place before they're allowed to begin the project. It only makes sense- they require a silt fence any time excavation is done and runoff could cause erosion to carry soil to an adjoining property but in an ocean, where oil/tides/wave action mean the spill can go far and wide, they just let it rip and try to blot up a bit so it looks like they tried.

 

[highfigh]

they have done all that and more...

this is unprecedented...perhaps they should have hired you?

it's easy to second guess from the sidelines...it seems the people with 'all the ideas' never want the job, lol

My point is that we have some huge engineering and environmental firms that can handle extremely large projects. I don't see anything about them being involved. Why not?

 

[highfigh]

what would you do?
all the companies specializing in this work, are working the problem...

who did you hear the comment 'the cost is too high' from, your head?
that was never said...you are making stuff up to make the admin look bad...
especially when all costs will be paid by BP and they have already been sent bills with 30 day payment deadlines...


you mean like 'bring them on', 'dead or alive' or 'mission accomplished'?
he's human, he's frustrated, it shows...

the only one 'wrong' here is you...you have no realistic understanding of the situation so you just take shots at Obama and make stuff up...now THAT's pathetic

ALL of the specialized companies are involved? Really? How do you know this- are you involved?

"Obama's lack of experience? he had as much, or more than bush...
and far more successful in nature...again, your bias is showing"

How is this possible? Obama never owned a company, never ran a team or company, was never a Governor and as far as anyone knows, never had a job until he graduated from college. From this last comment, you're blind to any facts that exist and as far as bias, again? What do mean by 'again'? If you mean that I'm biased against him because he's half black, piss off. I Actually liked what he was saying at the beginning of his campaign, until I heard some of the ways he wanted to implement what he was trying to do.

I'm the only one who's wrong here? Get a grip.

 

[TLS Guy]

ALL of the specialized companies are involved? Really? How do you know this- are you involved?

"Obama's lack of experience? he had as much, or more than bush...
and far more successful in nature...again, your bias is showing"

How is this possible? Obama never owned a company, never ran a team or company, was never a Governor and as far as anyone knows, never had a job until he graduated from college. From this last comment, you're blind to any facts that exist and as far as bias, again? What do mean by 'again'? If you mean that I'm biased against him because he's half black, piss off. I Actually liked what he was saying at the beginning of his campaign, until I heard some of the ways he wanted to implement what he was trying to do.

I'm the only one who's wrong here? Get a grip.

Yes he is wrong and dangerous.

This reflex BP bashing will end badly.

If a rift opens between the US and Canada over this, we will have another economic downturn and a big one. This view is gaining traction, and is being espoused by Boris Johnson, mayor of London. He is a prominent figure in the Conservative party and a journalist with a big following who has a regular influential column in the Daily Telegraph.

 

[Gizmologist]

a little detail left out by BP and the media

I personally contacted Titan Marine Salvage and Bisso Marine Salvage with an idea I have that will cap the well and rather quickly. During the discussions I was informed by BOTH that they had directly contacted BPs response team and the Coast Guard to offer their expertise and equipment.

Titan is the company that recovered the SS Hunley civil war sub and if you check their website you will see what else they can do and have done including HAZMAT handling of fuel oils and other dangerous cargoes.

The engineer from Titan talked with me for quite a while and informed me that they were told "no thanks, we will handle this" Same response from the folks at Bisso MS.

I have contacted all the numbers and websites listed, talked personally with the CG response coordinator office in LA and have been told the same. In fairn3ss the officer at the CD office did ask me what kind PSI my idea could handle and I thought he was seriously going to contact someone to talk with me.

Although BP advertises they are seeking ideas, nothing could be further from the truth. They would be crucified even more if some non oil industry person like myself came up with a workable solution (which I have).

The mechanics of this are so simple and damn near every mechanic has a miniature version of this device in their tool box. The device just needs up sizing and some hydraulic actuators. Every time you see the underwater pictures you are looking right at the solution.

BP did state that the profits (slim to none) from the collected oil will be paid to those with claims. Whoopti damn doo!

I will be trying again tomorrow to get someone to look at the idea.

 

[TLS Guy]

I personally contacted Titan Marine Salvage and Bisso Marine Salvage with an idea I have that will cap the well and rather quickly. During the discussions I was informed by BOTH that they had directly contacted BPs response team and the Coast guard to offer their expertise and equipment.

Titan is the company that recovered the SS Hunley civil war sub and if you check their website you will see what else they can do and have done including HAZMAT handling of fuel oils and other dangerous cargoes.

The engineer from Titan talked with me for quite a while and informed me that they were told "no thanks, we will handle this" Same response from the folks at Bisso MS.

I have contacted all the numbers and websites listed, talked personally with the CD response coordinator office in LA and have been told the same. Although BP advertises they are seeking ideas, nothing could be further from the truth. They would be crucified even more if some non oil industry person like myself came up with a workable solution (which I have).

The mechanics of this are so simple and damn near every mechanic has a miniature version of this device in their tool box. The device just needs up sizing and some hydraulic actuators. Every time you see the underwater pictures you are looking right at the solution.

BP did state that the profits (slim to none) from the collected oil will be paid to those with claims. Whoopti damn doo!

I will be trying again tomorrow to get someone to look at the idea.

You can not cap that well from above. The Blow out protector plates in the casement are damaged. Don Suttles has admitted that publicly. It was that realization that led to the abrupt stop of Top Kill.

They are being very careful to keep the pipe free flowing, less the whole well blow. If that happens flow will drastically increase and the relief wells will not work.

That is the reason they are confined to containment solutions for present.

This fact was mentioned by Admiral Allen in his June 9 press briefing and has also been alluded to by Senator Nelson.

So sealing the well from the top would carry prohibitive risks.

 

[Gizmologist]

There seem to be different stories going around.

The actuators of the BOP are damaged, yes. However, the hardened steel casing directly above the BOP outlet flange is designed and capable of handling the pressure of the drill mud and the resultant oil. The problem was a gas pocket that expanded faster than the BOP could react when triggered manually from the rig and the automatic systems were not functioning and were poorly designed to have no remote BU actuators.

The top kill was unsuccessful because the drilling mud pump pressure could not overcome the flow rate and pressure of the oil in order to allow the mud to congeal in preparation for the concrete. What is necessary is to slow/stop the oil so the concrete can be pumped in the casing through the BOP ports and not have flowing oil to provide counter pressure.

My plug concept can be slowly applied so as to not exert an sudden stoppage pressure against the well casing like the water hammer effect in a home plumbing system.