Site for sensible discussion of technical issues surrounding GOM oil leak.

[Matt34]

Its a bad idea, and could not be done at that depth. All it would do is create a Tsunami and prevent further access. Plus the device would have to be customized and the relief well will be in by then.

I personally am in favor of doing nothing further at the site, and concentrate on the relief well.

I think they are making a bad situation worse. If their current project fails, which is quite likely the flow will be permanently increased. I pretty sure top kill blew some more holes for oil to escape.

The only success with any blowouts at that depth has been a relief well.

Not to mention the fact on how a nuclear explosion would effect the rest of the surround oil pipeline network.

 

[JerryLove]

What the fk? My sarcasm detector just blew up. I wonder what caused that.

I don't know: but I see that happen *all* the time

 

[jamie2112]

I don't know: but I see that happen *all* the time

Mine too.........

 

[highfigh]

And what about these machined tools? No one fires up the furnace and reforges their wrench anymore.

...not that they did back then because blacksmithing was a trade secret.

So: I blame the metalurgy. It used to be people knew how their flint knives worked. Now they toss the broken one and buy a new one: or give it to a smith to fix... sigh...

I think it's the fault of the bozo who showed others how to make fire. If he had kept it to himself, the others would have either perished or figured it out for themselves.

Honestly, I think it's too easy to get information and to have things done for people. Self-reliance is all but gone and the ones who truly are, are often referred to as "part of a militia". People no longer need to figure things out on their own and that stops them from being able to reason effectively.

Mark- if you're comments were directed at members of the media being scientifically and technically retarded, I agree. The thing to remember about schools here is that some don't force kids to take courses when they have no interest. Many couldn't care less about math and I talk to people all the time who fall in this category. They can't figure out simple calculations to save their lives. Many others don't care that they can't spell. Personally, I can't understand why this is so hard but OTOH, many can't understand how someone can have problems with math. We all have certain abilities and interests- forcing kids to study what doesn't interest them can be a waste of time and resources. It can also mean that many will drop out, rather than find something that does stimulate their minds/pique their interest.

 

[GO-NAD!]

With all due respect, people who are adept with computers could say the same thing about people who don't know how to use them.

I really do not see the correlation, at all, whatsoever. BTW, I am not one who is adept with computers. People who are tend to be a lot smarter, I find.

When your computer breaks down, do you fix it yourself? It's just a tool. If I couldn't read and type on this computer, I would know much less about AV. Heck, I'd know less about wood glue, how long my various foods last in the fridge, and why it hurts when I pee. J/K.

Computer programming is probably the closest thing I can think of to chess or music composition. I don't think it's coincidence that some of the best musicians I have met were extremely good at two, if not three, of the above.

Also, I don't find much correlation between the ability to know how to build a home, and the incentive to learn. There are so many bodies of knowledge, whether medicine, literature, history, etc. I have a few friends that could probably build their own home, one of whom already has. Trust me, I know a lot of things they do not, and they've picked my brain many times. In fact, I'll take it further: I think some of my more learned friends would find these construction-adept persons to be in fact less intelligent. My point is that there are indeed many bodies of knowledge. Heck, it's been said that no one can know everything about just A/V. The science in this field alone is just too vast. I doubt the guy who can easily and immediately explain the physics of LCD transmission can also explain the mathematics behind finite impulse response theory.

And, putting a picture up on a wall, symmetrically, with all lines/walls under consideration is not always that easy.

BTW, stupidist is normally spelled stupidest, and that's assuming we accept it as a word to begin with, or the descriptivist lexicon in general. There are those who know language better than you or I who would say it is not a word.

I guess I should've expanded on what I meant about computers. My statement wasn't primarily aimed at those who build/fix/program. It was primarily directed towards those who want to sit in front of one banging on the keyboard all day. Until recently, there has been a shortage of people entering the "trades". Kids didn't want to get their hands dirty anymore and the areas of study were reflecting that fact. At least, that's the case around here and I have no reason to believe that it isn't typical.

However, over the last couple of years, community colleges have been fully booked with people entering the traditional trades, as it dawned on people that there's money to be made in those fields.

As for "Computer programming is probably the closest thing I can think of to chess or music composition", what's your point? None of those fields/pastimes implies a well rounded knowledge of general scientific principles. Speaking of computer programming - I know some programmers and you're not helping your case by bringing that up. "Idiot savant", is a phrase that comes to mind. Doesn't apply to all, of course, but I know some who are clueless about anything but computers.

I brought up house-building, because you don't build one from the ground up (including the electrical and plumbing) without a good knowledge of scientific principles - whether through formal education, or by practical experience.

I wasn't trying to insinuate any "correlation between the ability to know how to build a home, and the incentive to learn". However, if you do want to build a home, the incentive to learn is there by default.

What your "more learned friends" have to say about the intelligence of "construction-adept persons" may be completely meaningless. I know people with university degrees who can't think their way out of a paper bag. My brother-in-law is a student advisor at a local university and he is appalled by what he sees amongst the student body these days. Kids who don't know basic grammar and/or commit a coherent thought to paper are a constant irritation to him.

And finally, thanks for picking up that typo (fat fingers) for me. I pride myself in being a pretty good speller and I know how "stupidest" should be spelled. I did have to laugh at myself for it though. The first thing that came to my mind when you pointed it out was, "that wouldn't look out of place on a 'teabonics' sign. I used the word because it's in common usage - proper, or not. Just like "ain't"...

 

[GO-NAD!]

What the fk? My sarcasm detector just blew up. I wonder what caused that.

My back is killing me from the "pile on"....

 

[majorloser]

Not to mention the fact on how a nuclear explosion would effect the rest of the surround oil pipeline network.

Since when has russia been concerned about their surroundings?

I just want to see the mushroom cloud here in Florida.

 

[Gizmologist]

One thing that was obvious from the footage

Today in watching the attempts to saw the pipe it was obvious that no one in the control room of the ROV ever took basic Jr High shop class.

The saw they are using is a diamond tipped rotary blade with no set to the teeth. The blade is fastened to a floating(moving/shifting) motor assembly. They already sheared off the longest section. They started the cut on the UNDERSIDE of the pipe. As the pipe weakens from the cut, the weight of the pipe to the side of the BOP will bend down and pinch the kerf (the notch cut in the pipe) and will squeeze/ stall the blade.

The saw cut should START on the top of the pipe so the weight of the pipe forces OPEN the kerf and will not pinch the blade.

Another solution is to anchor 3 or 4 cables from the flange of the BOP and run them to the surface to be used as directional drop lines for a long malleable steel conical plug with a narrow taper. The plug is then winched down point first into the BOP and then clamped in place. Then cover the hole thing with high tensile concrete. Just like corking a bottle

 

[Matt34]

Since when has russia been concerned about their surroundings?

I just want to see the mushroom cloud here in Florida.

Hey, it could be just the idea to bump up tourism down there.

 

[Patrukas777]

In short: there is no desire to "acquire knowledge"

However, there they are "correcting and integrating" previous knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method).

One could also say in correcting and integrating previous knowledge, one could "acquire" new knowledge...

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. You brought up many valid points. I do think in this case, the scientific method is being applied in some ways. I would not be so black and white and say that *ALL* engineers use the scientific method. In some ways, it's not needed.

 

[rnatalli]

Its a bad idea, and could not be done at that depth. All it would do is create a Tsunami and prevent further access. Plus the device would have to be customized and the relief well will be in by then.

I personally am in favor of doing nothing further at the site, and concentrate on the relief well.

I think they are making a bad situation worse. If their current project fails, which is quite likely the flow will be permanently increased. I pretty sure top kill blew some more holes for oil to escape.

The only success with any blowouts at that depth has been a relief well.

Another thing to consider is every oil-drilling country on the planet will use it as an excuse to obtain nuclear weapons as "oil stoppers"

 

[TLS Guy]

How we got clogged in goo in the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[GO-NAD!]

How we got clogged in goo in the Gulf of Mexico.

Interesting read. Thanks Doc.

 

[ArthurPE]

Today in watching the attempts to saw the pipe it was obvious that no one in the control room of the ROV ever took basic Jr High shop class.

The saw they are using is a diamond tipped rotary blade with no set to the teeth. The blade is fastened to a floating(moving/shifting) motor assembly. They already sheared off the longest section. They started the cut on the UNDERSIDE of the pipe. As the pipe weakens from the cut, the weight of the pipe to the side of the BOP will bend down and pinch the kerf (the notch cut in the pipe) and will squeeze/ stall the blade.

The saw cut should START on the top of the pipe so the weight of the pipe forces OPEN the kerf and will not pinch the blade.

Another solution is to anchor 3 or 4 cables from the flange of the BOP and run them to the surface to be used as directional drop lines for a long malleable steel conical plug with a narrow taper. The plug is then winched down point first into the BOP and then clamped in place. Then cover the hole thing with high tensile concrete. Just like corking a bottle

that is clever, and would probably work...
might be better to start with long threaded rods/nuts...the stream loses its velocity pressure quickly and is disappated in a short distance...the water pressure is >2000 psi in your favor...the point on the cone would divert the pressure...just keep tightening the nuts until sealed tight...
simple and elegant

heck, you might be able to use cables/rods as guides, position the cone, and start filling it with concrete, the let mass do the work...if you know Q and the area (and they probably know Pressure), then you know v, and can determine velocity pressure, so you know the weight you'ld need to overcome it...
lower it right in the pipe...guided by the cables...

 

[Gizmologist]

actually

I think BP really did not want to permanently cap the well and lose any oil income from the investment. This thing just got away from them.

I talked to an engineer at Titan Marine Salvage a couple days ago. These are the guys who raised the SS Hunley Civil War Submarine and do deep sea salvage of entire ships INCLUDING HAZMAT material offloading. he told me they offered the company's equipment and expertise weeks ago and BP said "no thanks, we can do this." yea, suuuuuure you can.

 

[adwilk]

I'm truly failing to see the correlation with the issues in the Gulf and our nation's educational system. And I'm trying. But, being of a younger generation I do find it mildly offensive. Even if we had the world's top educational system, we still have the problem. I don't like the fact that this topic is being used as a medium to take a blatant stab of a completely unrelated issue.

If a second grader wanted to learn everything there is about physics or chemistry or programming or blacksmithing those resources are available. Sure, we send a lot of people through our public school system without a proper education, but the root of the problem is with the individual. The drivers of our society will still pursue learning long beyond school. Its the individuals looking for handouts that will settle for bare minimums and mediocrity- no reason to take credit from the rest of us that desire and acquire the knowledge to keep moving forward.

I don't see the big shots educated in yesteryear fixing the problem yet.

I'd imagine that unless your very well versed in what exactly is going on, it'd be very difficult to truly fathom the complexity of this problem. I seriously don't blame anybody, I'm not mad at anybody, and I sincerely hope this serves as a catalyst for harder looks at less environmentally invasive methods of energy. I see a producer getting hammered by a bunch of non-contributing consumers looking for something to get all worked up about- probably seeking another handout.

I don't mean that last statement to be directed at this forum or its members. And, I do feel sympathy for the other producers in the area that have had their lives flipped upside down.

 

[Rickster71]

It's a sad story all around.
I'm always looking for ways that problems can been avoided. It just seems that drilling for oil miles below the waters' surface is an accident waiting to happen.
Especially when we have easily accessible oil within the continental USA and Alaska (ANWR).

If this happened on land, the fix is many times easier and probably wouldn't have happened in the first place.
The laws and special interest groups that prohibit drilling in Alaska ANWR have helped create this self fulfilling prophecy.
So what was meant to supposedly save Alaska has destroyed the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[adwilk]

Personally I think we should plug the hole with child molesters and sex offenders.

I'm just spitballing here...

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'm truly failing to see the correlation with the issues in the Gulf and our nation's educational system. And I'm trying. But, being of a younger generation I do find it mildly offensive. Even if we had the world's top educational system, we still have the problem. I don't like the fact that this topic is being used as a medium to take a blatant stab of a completely unrelated issue.

If a second grader wanted to learn everything there is about physics or chemistry or programming or blacksmithing those resources are available. Sure, we send a lot of people through our public school system without a proper education, but the root of the problem is with the individual. The drivers of our society will still pursue learning long beyond school. Its the individuals looking for handouts that will settle for bare minimums and mediocrity- no reason to take credit from the rest of us that desire and acquire the knowledge to keep moving forward.

I don't see the big shots educated in yesteryear fixing the problem yet.

I'd imagine that unless your very well versed in what exactly is going on, it'd be very difficult to truly fathom the complexity of this problem. I seriously don't blame anybody, I'm not mad at anybody, and I sincerely hope this serves as a catalyst for harder looks at less environmentally invasive methods of energy. I see a producer getting hammered by a bunch of non-contributing consumers looking for something to get all worked up about- probably seeking another handout.

I don't mean that last statement to be directed at this forum or its members. And, I do feel sympathy for the other producers in the area that have had their lives flipped upside down.

You're right, in that the educational system is not at fault for what happened in the Gulf of Mexico. I think the reference to education standards in this thread is related to the loads of uninformed nonsense floating around on various internet forums as well as being reported by the "professional" media. Too many people pounding keyboards and flapping their gums about a subject of which, they know precious little.

The thread did roll into the ditch from there. I plead guilty for any part I may have played in that.

I do however, stand by my theory that computers have contributed to the dumbing down of society. There are too many easy answers to questions available (and not always accurate), which leads to people taking the easy route instead of working the questions out for themselves. In which case, nothing gets learned. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming a younger generation for this. If I was 25 - 30 years younger, I'm pretty sure I'd be a textbook example of this phenomenon...

 

[highfigh]

Personally I think we should plug the hole with child molesters and sex offenders.

I'm just spitballing here...

I think they should try filling it with politicians, specifically members of Congress. They're dense, so they'll fall to the bottom with no assistance and slimy enough to slide into the pipe easily, even with a jagged opening. Also, polyester is used in oil booms because it holds the oil and allows water to escape- they use woven polyester fibers in diapers, too. These will attract the child molestors. Once the members of Congress are fully inserted (take that any way you want), the rest of the "junk shot" can be loaded into the pipe.