Site for sensible discussion of technical issues surrounding GOM oil leak.

[TLS Guy]

I'm now convinced there has been no science education in the US for several generations. We have a nation of technical imbeciles. The main stream media are as stupid as the rest.

I have been finding this site the Oil Drum highly informative. I have leaned a lot about oil drilling and its problems.

I think you will gain some insights here that you can not get from CNN etc.

 

[highfigh]

I'm now convinced there has been no science education in the US for several generations. We have a nation of technical imbeciles. The main stream media are as stupid as the rest.

I have been finding this site the Oil Drum highly informative. I have leaned a lot about oil drilling and its problems.

I think you will gain some insights here that you can not get from CNN etc.

"I'm now convinced there has been no science education in the US for several generations."

That's just wrong. Look at all of the advances the US has produced in the last 40 years and ask yourself why you posted that.

One of the problems here is that after a certain age, girls have historically been persuaded to learn about things that aren't math and science, which immediately leaves us with a drastic reduction in qualified people. Another problem is that most of the US population wants to make a lot of money, which isn't guaranteed in some fields.

"The main stream media are as stupid as the rest." is something I can absolutely agree with.

As far as technical imbeciles, I don't know who you have spoken with but, having gone to an engineering college, I know a lot of extremely intelligent people in many technical fields. Many are women, too. The guy who sat to my left in our high school freshman Algebra class has been at NASA for decades and all of his advanced secondary education was in the US. He came here during the Soviet invasion of Prague but he did learn a lot of what he knows here.

When people think money is the ultimate goal, altruism goes out the window.

BTW- It's BP who are having a hard time fixing this and that's not an American company, AFAIK.

 

[highfigh]

You should know by now- the mainstream media are more about entertainment than actual news dissemination. When they use a 30-60 minute loop to play all day, it's not as if they're trying to keep current.

 

[JerryLove]

That's just wrong. Look at all of the advances the US has produced in the last 40 years and ask yourself why you posted that.

Perhaps he intended something like "the general state of science education hsa been poor".

Certainly good science can still be learned within the US borders. To say otherwise is to ignore reality. That said: the *general* state of science-education in the US is appauling. It's a challenge to find people who can even properly define "scientific method" in a country that's trying to work intelligent design back into their textbooks.

BTW- It's BP who are having a hard time fixing this and that's not an American company, AFAIK.

BP didn't build or operate the rig.

Sill: this is a good example. The problem of plugging a hole at the bottom of the ocean is one of engineering, not one of science.

This is a US-approve drill that should have been covered under MMS supervision. But the thing was rubber-stamped. Then it was (as is norm) not built out with safety as the top priority.

So insufficient safety, insufficient oversight. Next we have companies with no tested disaster-response plan (I've worked for far too many: such plans are a rarity) counting on it neither not happening (odd since we average about two major blow-outs per year, and since almost this exact scenereo has happened in the past), or "just figuring it out then".

I think if we start with a good history eduction: everyone will demand educations in science, politics, engineering, and firearms to avoid repeating it.

 

[lsiberian]

I have to disagree with the sentiments here as well. I know plenty of technically intelligent people in our nation. Computer Science requires an intense understanding of mathematics and problem solving skills. The fact is most people dont' have the aptitude for engineering that you and I have. But their are plenty of other areas that contribute to our society. My brother for example has an intense business aptitude and has started his own company while knowing more about investing than most people have forgotten.

In my high school we studied 2 semesters of college calculus, 1 semester of calculus physics and the equal of 2 semester of college programming.

Our society simply gives people the choice to excel or not. If you want to excel in math you can have a very challenging and fun high school career.

When I left high school I could code any program in C++, do Basic calculus and physics. And I was a slacker. There were some that did more than that.

This idea need not be perpetuated since given the opportunity and motivation to pursue engineering kids will.

 

[lsiberian]

Sill: this is a good example. The problem of plugging a hole at the bottom of the ocean is one of engineering, not one of science.

this was really a freak accident that was unavoidable until it happened. People love to point fingers, but the reality is they've been building rigs like this for years and never had an issue like this. Plugging the hole is a combination of science and engineering. We really don't know how to plug the hole yet. Being angry at BP or the evil Oil companies that line our 401k and IRA funds is just silly. Since when do people actually use the text books for a class? Arguments over them make me laugh because I rarely opened mine.

 

[JerryLove]

this was really a freak accident that was unavoidable until it happened. People love to point fingers, but the reality is they've been building rigs like this for years and never had an issue like this.

So you didn't read my post. (because I explicitly stated this has heppened before)

You don't know history, and you didn't read my post.

What happened with the Deep Horizon's oil platform is almost exactly like what happened with the Ixtoc oil platform in 1979. An issue just like this has happened before.

And that's only if we get very literal. Blow-outs happen several times a year. There have been more than 10 >100,000-gallon spills in US waters in the years since the Ixtoc spill.

Plugging the hole is a combination of science and engineering.

OK. Explain to me the scientific method being applied to plug this. Because I believe you are completely wrong.

We really don't know how to plug the hole yet. Being angry at BP or the evil Oil companies that line our 401k and IRA funds is just silly.

How is it silly to be upset at someone whose carlessness harmed me?

 

[lsiberian]

So you didn't read my post. (because I explicitly stated this has heppened before)

You don't know history, and you didn't read my post.

What happened with the Deep Horizon's oil platform is almost exactly like what happened with the Ixtoc oil platform in 1979. An issue just like this has happened before.

And that's only if we get very literal. Blow-outs happen several times a year. There have been more than 10 >100,000-gallon spills in US waters in the years since the Ixtoc spill.

OK. Explain to me the scientific method being applied to plug this. Because I believe you are completely wrong.

How is it silly to be upset at someone whose carlessness harmed me?

This hasn't happened before. The causes of this blowout are different than those of previous ones. No one has ever tried to plug a blowout of the magnitude at this depth before.

Engineering uses science and the scientific method. Engineering processes are based on the scientific method. Acting like Engineering is disjoint from science is madness. They are joined at the hip. Without science we'd not have engineering.

 

[JerryLove]

This hasn't happened before. The causes of this blowout are different than those of previous ones. No one has ever tried to plug a blowout of the magnitude at this depth before.

You are correct in regards to depth. The previous one happened in shallower water.

The cause is a "blowout" coupled with a failure of a blowout-preventer. That happens several times a year.

That it could happen under worse conditions, and would be more difficult to resolve under worse conditions is pretty obvious.

Engineering uses science and the scientific method. Engineering processes are based on the scientific method. Acting like Engineering is disjoint from science is madness. They are joined at the hip. Without science we'd not have engineering.

Then you run into a reducto-ad-absurdum where everything is everything and all such labels are utterly useless.

In this case, you've said all engineering is science which would mean that "engineer" could be replaced with "scientist" in all instances. A similar "cooking is based on science" and "break dancing is based in science" would be used to make everything the same as everything else.

*That* would be madness.

Science attempts to form models which can be used to make predictions about observable reality. Putting a giant metal cap on top of a gusher of oil was not done to help create a new model. It was not done to advance human understanding of the world around them. In short: there is no desire to "aquire knowledge" (http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html)

There is an attempt to *apply* knowledge (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=engineering)

If you want to say that me building a swing-set in my back yard is "science", then I'm afraid you and I are using entirely different vocabularies.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm now convinced there has been no science education in the US for several generations. We have a nation of technical imbeciles. The main stream media are as stupid as the rest.

I have been finding this site the Oil Drum highly informative. I have leaned a lot about oil drilling and its problems.

I think you will gain some insights here that you can not get from CNN etc.

I was getting at grade school education. I agree that advanced university courses can nurture highly superior individuals.

However having concepts of pressure, hydraulics latent heat etc, is part of a basic education.

If you listen to the reporters, politicians, journalists and worst of all the blogs, you come to understand pretty quickly the educational deficit.

 

[highfigh]

Perhaps he intended something like "the general state of science education hsa been poor".

Certainly good science can still be learned within the US borders. To say otherwise is to ignore reality. That said: the *general* state of science-education in the US is appauling. It's a challenge to find people who can even properly define "scientific method" in a country that's trying to work intelligent design back into their textbooks.

BP didn't build or operate the rig.

Sill: this is a good example. The problem of plugging a hole at the bottom of the ocean is one of engineering, not one of science.

This is a US-approve drill that should have been covered under MMS supervision. But the thing was rubber-stamped. Then it was (as is norm) not built out with safety as the top priority.

So insufficient safety, insufficient oversight. Next we have companies with no tested disaster-response plan (I've worked for far too many: such plans are a rarity) counting on it neither not happening (odd since we average about two major blow-outs per year, and since almost this exact scenereo has happened in the past), or "just figuring it out then".

I think if we start with a good history eduction: everyone will demand educations in science, politics, engineering, and firearms to avoid repeating it.

BP didn't drill it but they did make the decision to not include some of the safety measures. They didn't think it was worth the money and now, they're taking their sweet time in capping it. Like the auto manufacturers, a certain amount of damage is acceptable from an accounting standpoint.

"I think if we start with a good history eduction"- define this and ask a group of teachers for their definition. What is taught is decided by people whose view of the world doesn't coincide with that of a huge percentage of the population. That, coupled with students who think they're capable of and qualified to decide what they want to learn because they think they'll never use the information later in life causes a greater number than expected to repeatedly ask "You want fries with that?" when they finally get a job.

 

[highfigh]

I was getting at grade school education. I agree that advanced university courses can nurture highly superior individuals.

However having concepts of pressure, hydraulics latent heat etc, is part of a basic education.

If you listen to the reporters, politicians, journalists and worst of all the blogs, you come to understand pretty quickly the educational deficit.

"However having concepts of pressure, hydraulics latent heat etc, is part of a basic education."

This is hardly basic education. These topics are only covered in, or after, physics classes. I have heard, in the past, that US educators were considering changing the order of some science classes. I don't know if they did this, but when I was in high school, Physics was only available to Seniors or others who were in advanced studies but since Physics governs everything, they wanted to teach it first, so students would have an easier time understanding Chemistry, Electronics, Statics and the rest of their Physical Science classes.

Also, what young students (meaning, 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade) are taught is far more advanced that what I was taught at that age and it's only natural- there was much less to learn then.

 

[JerryLove]

BP didn't drill it but they did make the decision to not include some of the safety measures. They didn't think it was worth the money and now, they're taking their sweet time in capping it. Like the auto manufacturers, a certain amount of damage is acceptable from an accounting standpoint.

There were mistakes at many levels. BP definately included. Haliburton, the plaform operator, and MMS (and by extension the federal government) failed here to protect the interests (safety) of the people of the region.

"I think if we start with a good history eduction"- define this and ask a group of teachers for their definition.

Of course any definition I could provide to meet my conclusion would be tautological. I was generally being rhetorical whilest attempting to draw attention to the fact that our general ability to recall and act on the lessons of history is poor.

But whether blown oil rigs, or economic bubbles, or bell-bottom trousers: we make mistakes we've made before... adjusted... then made again.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I agree with the good doctor's original statement - especially when it comes to journalists covering subjects they know absolutely nothing about. I wouldn't expect any average reporter to know much about offshore oil drilling, but they should do at least a few minutes worth of background research before they go to news conferences and start wasting time by asking the stupidist questions imaginable.

That is my biggest beef with the media - they can't be bothered to learn about a particular topic, so that they can ask informed questions.

As to the state of technical knowledge and education amongst our youth, the more that people become disconnected with how to do things for themselves, the less incentive there is to learn.

When and where I grew up, everybody (and I mean everybody) built their own homes. Guys learned from their fathers, relatives and friends. Nowadays, most young people have a hard time properly hanging a picture on the wall.

I believe computers should attract a goodly proportion of the blame for the dumbing down of our youth. They are no longer interested in how things work. If something breaks, throw it away or call somebody to fix it...sigh...

 

[majorloser]

I'm still waiting for them to nuke the leak:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/113370-0/

Hey, if it worked in Russia, it's got to be a good idea

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm still waiting for them to nuke the leak:

http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/113370-0/

Hey, if it worked in Russia, it's got to be a good idea

Its a bad idea, and could not be done at that depth. All it would do is create a Tsunami and prevent further access. Plus the device would have to be customized and the relief well will be in by then.

I personally am in favor of doing nothing further at the site, and concentrate on the relief well.

I think they are making a bad situation worse. If their current project fails, which is quite likely the flow will be permanently increased. I pretty sure top kill blew some more holes for oil to escape.

The only success with any blowouts at that depth has been a relief well.

 

[jostenmeat]

I believe computers should attract a goodly proportion of the blame for the dumbing down of our youth. They are no longer interested in how things work. If something breaks, throw it away or call somebody to fix it...sigh...

With all due respect, people who are adept with computers could say the same thing about people who don't know how to use them.

I really do not see the correlation, at all, whatsoever. BTW, I am not one who is adept with computers. People who are tend to be a lot smarter, I find.

When your computer breaks down, do you fix it yourself? It's just a tool. If I couldn't read and type on this computer, I would know much less about AV. Heck, I'd know less about wood glue, how long my various foods last in the fridge, and why it hurts when I pee. J/K.

Computer programming is probably the closest thing I can think of to chess or music composition. I don't think it's coincidence that some of the best musicians I have met were extremely good at two, if not three, of the above.

Also, I don't find much correlation between the ability to know how to build a home, and the incentive to learn. There are so many bodies of knowledge, whether medicine, literature, history, etc. I have a few friends that could probably build their own home, one of whom already has. Trust me, I know a lot of things they do not, and they've picked my brain many times. In fact, I'll take it further: I think some of my more learned friends would find these construction-adept persons to be in fact less intelligent. My point is that there are indeed many bodies of knowledge. Heck, it's been said that no one can know everything about just A/V. The science in this field alone is just too vast. I doubt the guy who can easily and immediately explain the physics of LCD transmission can also explain the mathematics behind finite impulse response theory.

And, putting a picture up on a wall, symmetrically, with all lines/walls under consideration is not always that easy.

BTW, stupidist is normally spelled stupidest, and that's assuming we accept it as a word to begin with, or the descriptivist lexicon in general. There are those who know language better than you or I who would say it is not a word.

 

[JerryLove]

I believe computers should attract a goodly proportion of the blame for the dumbing down of our youth. They are no longer interested in how things work. If something breaks, throw it away or call somebody to fix it...sigh...

And what about these machined tools? No one fires up the furnace and reforges their wrench anymore.

...not that they did back then because blacksmithing was a trade secret.

So: I blame the metalurgy. It used to be people knew how their flint knives worked. Now they toss the broken one and buy a new one: or give it to a smith to fix... sigh...

 

[gmichael]

What the fk? My sarcasm detector just blew up. I wonder what caused that.

 

[Tarub]

I believe computers should attract a goodly proportion of the blame for the dumbing down of our youth. They are no longer interested.......