Sigberg Audio MANTA dual cardioid active speaker development thread

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
@TLS Guy Looks like a well behaved system! I appreciate the feedback and compliments, and yes we seem to have some similar ideas. :)

A center (or LCR) version of the SBS.1 with a single coax and dual midbass drivers has been on the drawing board. But everything is difficult in the early stages, including conveying a clear identity and clear values as a company or brand. So far our products and our approach have been aimed at music / 2 channel stereo, and we have made no attempts to explicitly cater to home cinema needs and/or that customer segment. This is also evident in the choices made in our subwoofer designs.

An active, high capacity speaker designed to play with a subwoofer is obviously well suited for a home cinema system, but this is (perhaps interestingly) more by accident than due to explicitly designing for that purpose.

So if we were to suddenly release a center channel speaker, that would be a deviation from our current focus and possibly make it more unclear what we are about. It would also be something completely different than for instance the Manta. This is not to say we will never make a center speaker, but I'm not sure this is the right time.
You should do, if you can, a “horizontal” measurement of the SBS.1 just as proof of concept for putting one on its side. IIRC, the fusion amp can be in that position.
The BMR monitor that I used to use horizontally behaved pretty well on its side, as long as you rotate the Raal for that orientation. There were absolutely some changes to diffraction performance but not in an audible manner.
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
You should do, if you can, a “horizontal” measurement of the SBS.1 just as proof of concept for putting one on its side. IIRC, the fusion amp can be in that position.
The BMR monitor that I used to use horizontally behaved pretty well on its side, as long as you rotate the Raal for that orientation. There were absolutely some changes to diffraction performance but not in an audible manner.
We did that a while back due to a question about using it a center from a customer, testing +/-15 degrees to the side and +/-15 degrees up/down. The responses were very similar. James did vertical measurements as well, and confirmed/mentioned both in the written review and in the Youtube review that it would work well. Within the angle of a normal listening position it would be perfectly fine to use the SBS.1 in the vertical position.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
We did that a while back due to a question about using it a center from a customer, testing +/-15 degrees to the side and +/-15 degrees up/down. The responses were very similar. James did vertical measurements as well, and confirmed/mentioned both in the written review and in the Youtube review that it would work well. Within the angle of a normal listening position it would be perfectly fine to use the SBS.1 in the vertical position.
Given the opportunity to keep it vertical, that's a no-brainer. It's been surprising though, how many people repeatedly ask about that BMR monitor in the horizontal alignment. Obviously the Raal is orientation-dependent whereas the Sica Coax is not.
I almost wonder if there is a specific DSP treatment that could be switched on or off for such usage... allowing you to maximize performance if one were to lay the speaker down vs. stand it up as it is conceived to be.

Minor details.

Still love your concept and what you are doing!
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
I meant to write that James confirmed it would be fine to use in a horizontal position (as well as obviously vertical), sorry.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
@TLS Guy Looks like a well behaved system! I appreciate the feedback and compliments, and yes we seem to have some similar ideas. :)

A center (or LCR) version of the SBS.1 with a single coax and dual midbass drivers has been on the drawing board. But everything is difficult in the early stages, including conveying a clear identity and clear values as a company or brand. So far our products and our approach have been aimed at music / 2 channel stereo, and we have made no attempts to explicitly cater to home cinema needs and/or that customer segment. This is also evident in the choices made in our subwoofer designs.

An active, high capacity speaker designed to play with a subwoofer is obviously well suited for a home cinema system, but this is (perhaps interestingly) more by accident than due to explicitly designing for that purpose.

So if we were to suddenly release a center channel speaker, that would be a deviation from our current focus and possibly make it more unclear what we are about. It would also be something completely different than for instance the Manta. This is not to say we will never make a center speaker, but I'm not sure this is the right time.
I can well understand that, but time moves on. I started designing this system 20 years ago, when there was not much HT, it was just kicking off, and most of it not very good. That was pre HDMI.

I would say these days, that the music only systems are in decline. At least they are over here. About the only thing keeping it going, is the erroneous notion that an HT system can not be a good two channel music system. That is obviously nonsense, and this system is a good two channel system.

The other issue is that people really do like to be able to get a picture with their system. I have a 7.2.4 system, a 3.1 and a 2.1 system, but they can all get a picture up.

I have noted that even for spoken TV programs like news, only program mixed as two channel sounds optimal on a two channel rig if the speakers are close together, if mixed in Dolby multichannel then a good center is a distinct advantage.

The other issue is that even music is evolving, with Atmos music recordings starting to proliferate. The Berlin Philharmonic have stated streaming in Dolby Atmos. They call it immersive audio. I have been evaluating it critically. They have a learning curve here I fear. I have been corresponding with them. Even so the new Dolby upmixer is really impressive, and really can sort out front back sides and above from a two channel source. I can get the BBC via VPN to the London Amazon server. The Proms have been of a phenomenally high standard this year. It really does sound like the Albert Hall. They are using a version of the Decca tree mic arrangement this year, with gentle use of spot mics. A few days ago, for the Elgar cello concerto I note they used a mini version of the Decca tree to spot the cello at about, I would estimated an 8 to 10 ft. distance. The was the best capture of a cello, I have ever heard. It had the perfect balance of body and string.

This I find interesting, as it may mean they are experimenting with Atmos also. I say this as a recent paper out of England suggests that an adaptation of the Decca tree may be the optimal mic arrangement for classical Atmos recordings.

In a way this makes it an exciting time to be in the speaker business. There are more speakers to sell. However the downside of it is, that one has to be even more conscious of the cost of the product. Having said that, the old adage remains, that two good speakers best multiple poor ones. I am now though, convinced that multi channel systems have not only the potential, but do improve the experience in the home, and that improvement is highly significant. That is especially true for opera.

I use the large dual TLs for the front left and right, the Coax TL for the center. The surrounds are 2.5 way sealed speakers using Dynaudio drivers, built mid eighties. They were my location monitors when I made location recordings for broadcast. The rears are dual TLs that were my studio speakers for many years. The upper line is totally damped and non 'speaking'. This design stated in 1984. I rebuilt the bass TLs of these speakers in 2005 following the publication of George Augspurger's correct model of the TL in 2000. By the way you can download his TL design program on my web site. George is now nearly 100 years old, and he has entrusted his program to me. You can use his design software for commercial designs by the way. For the four ceiling speakers, I use Mark Audio 6" full range metal coned speakers in 0.25 cu.ft sealed back boxes. These are excellent for that application. I think there is a lot of silliness in the pro design/installer market currently about the number of speakers and channels of audio you need in a home theater. The channels I have now are more than adequate for this fairly large room.

I would say though that designing a good center is a very significant challenge. Since it is so frequently reproducing the human voice, there no place to hide. It can't be over large, and yet must be capable of high output in the HT environment. That center was a lot of R & D. However your approach looks like a massive leg up for a successful design.

As has been the case for all our lives, the pace of change continues to pick up.
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
@TLS Guy I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. Time will show where we end up. These days it's mostly about proving what we can do and building a brand.

Many people have combination systems, and some of those use our speakers as main speakers, and successfully so. Our subwoofers are also plenty capable in moderate systems for both movies and music, but they're purposely focused on being great in the frequency band where 99% of the content are. Producing high SPLs below 20hz requires a completely different approach, especially when it comes to size.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
@TLS Guy I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. Time will show where we end up. These days it's mostly about proving what we can do and building a brand.

Many people have combination systems, and some of those use our speakers as main speakers, and successfully so. Our subwoofers are also plenty capable in moderate systems for both movies and music, but they're purposely focused on being great in the frequency band where 99% of the content are. Producing high SPLs below 20hz requires a completely different approach, especially when it comes to size.
I don't think many here think that high spl. below 20 Hz is required or necessary. In fact with the stud construction of American walls, it could easily become a demolition device and not an audio system. In fact in our lake home, which was stud construction, those TLs with drivers with an Fs of 20 Hz, could move the walls enough to make me concerned of structural damage. That is one of many reasons the walls in this home a 6 inch reinforced concrete. I don't know if you have it in Norway, but it is Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) construction. I actually think that improved the sound, as the frame walls flexed and vibrated on organ music.

So getting to -3db around 20 to 25 Hz is quite sufficient for home HT. For acceptance of home HT you are absolutely correct to make form factor and foot print a high priority.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't think many here think that high spl. below 20 Hz is required or necessary. In fact with the stud construction of American walls, it could easily become a demolition device and not an audio system. In fact in our lake home, which was stud construction, those TLs with drivers with an Fs of 20 Hz, could move the walls enough to make me concerned of structural damage. That is one of many reasons the walls in this home a 6 inch reinforced concrete. I don't know if you have it in Norway, but it is Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) construction. I actually think that improved the sound, as the frame walls flexed and vibrated on organ music.

So getting to -3db around 20 to 25 Hz is quite sufficient for home HT. For acceptance of home HT you are absolutely correct to make form factor and foot print a high priority.
I doubt you would have structural damage- the building isn't a sealed box and it's too large for the air to compress enough to break the joints of the framing. You might be able to crack some drywall joints, though (but not the exterior walls). The walls acted as diaphragms, but with the weight of everything above them, the joints wouldn't have failed.

I would like to discuss ICF with you- I'm familiar with it, but not with sourcing, timelines, overall construction time/contracting, etc.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I doubt you would have structural damage- the building isn't a sealed box and it's too large for the air to compress enough to break the joints of the framing. You might be able to crack some drywall joints, though (but not the exterior walls). The walls acted as diaphragms, but with the weight of everything above them, the joints wouldn't have failed.

I would like to discuss ICF with you- I'm familiar with it, but not with sourcing, timelines, overall construction time/contracting, etc.
Yes, it was the sheet rock cracks. However the frame walls do add coloration, I'm certain, and gross vibration. I'm certain the ICF construction is a significant factor in the improved audio of this new room.

Even though I really beefed up the floor, and used massive dampening below, it still does vibrate slightly and you feel it. I think the chair frames also resonate to a degree.
So this is why I think pursuing ultra low F3s at power is a dead end and self defeating.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, it was the sheet rock cracks. However the frame walls do add coloration, I'm certain, and gross vibration. I'm certain the ICF construction is a significant factor in the improved audio of this new room.

Even though I really beefed up the floor, and used massive dampening below, it still does vibrate slightly and you feel it. I think the chair frames also resonate to a degree.
So this is why I think pursuing ultra low F3s at power is a dead end and self defeating.
An easy way to prevent the framing's ability to add/subtract is to add a layer of something dense, like MDF, particle board, mass-loading vinyl, etc. Just adding stiffness is easy, too- use engineered studs- they're the same as glue-lam, just in 2x4 or 2x6 dimensions.

I'm not changing my house's framing, but the Vifa/Peerless speakers I built using the crossover you provided can be felt easily in many areas, in the floor. Pretty amazing that two 6-1/2" drivers in each can do that.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Glad you are happy with your subs. I have no recollection of doing he Vifa/Peerless design.

By the way, I did not know I had reached Guru status. I have not grown a beard yet, and have no wound up sheets on my head. That might be a better handle, than "Seriously I have no Life" though, which is just a tad insulting. I think Guru might be several notches above that!
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
The journey from idea to finished and commercialized loudspeaker isn't short and it isn't straight. It's more like crazy long and with quite a few unexpected turns. And there's a lot to do in addition to building the loudspeaker itself. You got to design and building packaging, user manuals, accessories, stands / brackets and whatnot..

Case in point: The last few months I've been pondering designs for loudspeaker stands to the Manta. We already have prototype stands, but the final stands probably won't look like those. An alternative design was created, and I finally got a finished prototype this weekend. They're made in 5mm powder coated steel. Extremely heavy and solid. I could probably punch a hole in a brick wall with them. And the stands themselves look great.

But visually they ended up looking too puny and thin compared to the pretty brutal look of the Manta. So this won't work. It could MAYBE work if the foot was significantly wider, and the column was twice was as wide (this is 50mm). But I'm starting to question the entire design with the single column in the middle. :oops: The bottom plate is suppoed to have feet below it too so that would add an illusion of thickness to the bottom plate, but still. Back to the drawing board..:p

1663517162412.png
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The journey from idea to finished and commercialized loudspeaker isn't short and it isn't straight. It's more like crazy long and with quite a few unexpected turns. And there's a lot to do in addition to building the loudspeaker itself. You got to design and building packaging, user manuals, accessories, stands / brackets and whatnot..

Case in point: The last few months I've been pondering designs for loudspeaker stands to the Manta. We already have prototype stands, but the final stands probably won't look like those. An alternative design was created, and I finally got a finished prototype this weekend. They're made in 5mm powder coated steel. Extremely heavy and solid. I could probably punch a hole in a brick wall with them. And the stands themselves look great.

But visually they ended up looking too puny and thin compared to the pretty brutal look of the Manta. So this won't work. It could MAYBE work if the foot was significantly wider, and the column was twice was as wide (this is 50mm). But I'm starting to question the entire design with the single column in the middle. :oops: The bottom plate is suppoed to have feet below it too so that would add an illusion of thickness to the bottom plate, but still. Back to the drawing board..:p

View attachment 57833
One idea for speaker stands I have always liked is inward facing planks. Here is a version:

Obviously, that could be made to look a lot nicer, but you get the idea of the basic structure. It is very simple but very solid and doesn't take a lot of material to safely hold a lot of mass. Metal or wood could be used. For looks, you could use different finishes, or vary the thickness of the columns or their angle. There are a lot of ways to adjust this design, but it will still be strong.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The journey from idea to finished and commercialized loudspeaker isn't short and it isn't straight. It's more like crazy long and with quite a few unexpected turns. And there's a lot to do in addition to building the loudspeaker itself. You got to design and building packaging, user manuals, accessories, stands / brackets and whatnot..

Case in point: The last few months I've been pondering designs for loudspeaker stands to the Manta. We already have prototype stands, but the final stands probably won't look like those. An alternative design was created, and I finally got a finished prototype this weekend. They're made in 5mm powder coated steel. Extremely heavy and solid. I could probably punch a hole in a brick wall with them. And the stands themselves look great.

But visually they ended up looking too puny and thin compared to the pretty brutal look of the Manta. So this won't work. It could MAYBE work if the foot was significantly wider, and the column was twice was as wide (this is 50mm). But I'm starting to question the entire design with the single column in the middle. :oops: The bottom plate is suppoed to have feet below it too so that would add an illusion of thickness to the bottom plate, but still. Back to the drawing board..:p

View attachment 57833
In my view speakers that need stands are a PITA. As you have found out that they very much have architectural challenges, and especially stability challenges. In addition, they do not save a square inch of floor space.

My advice is to build truly full range speakers. Those speakers need a sub anyway. They are active, so you might just as well have a fully integrated design. In that way you have a properly integrated four way speaker. There are advantages to a total crossover design. I found it an easy matter to mix in the sub and LFE feeds with a buffer amp. I knew that late Ted Jordan well, and we continued to correspond to the end of his life. He was always adamant that separating fundamentals and harmonics in time and space was a very bad thing. My experience and measurements confirm he was absolutely right. This current vogue for chucking subs around the room, is just plain wrong.

Down the road, you should consider doing a full range integrated TL speaker. George Augspurger has entrusted me to keep his software available. I can assure anyone, his model is correct in every way. It is available to all, for hobbyists and commercial builders alike. It can be downloaded from my website.

TLs couple to the room differently to other forms of loading, and have very even natural bass distribution throughout the room As I have stated before, organ builders call this phenomenon of pipes "encircling." Quite a few engineers have heard this largely based TL system here. Pretty much all have commented that the really distinguishing feature of the system is the bass quality.

If you get all else right, and you seem to be doing so, then TL bass is a really heavy dollop of icing on the cake. TLs are really efficient, so you do not need gobs of power.

TL bass systems in my view best all other bass alignment by a huge margin.
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
We showcased the prototype at a Norwegian hifishow this weekend, here's a few pics :)

308160420_486133103168144_7766900151405872765_n.jpg


1664197644005-png.852329


308425233_485541936782454_5542333863454320216_n.jpg


308758603_1139832326953874_8316837704299534875_n.jpg


The reception was great! People really liked the design and thought it looked even more awesome in real life than they had seen in pictures. They also liked the retro loudspeaker stand, so I guess we need to go with something along those lines (we're looking into an alternative design now, but perhaps we'll just drop that). I guess the sense of space (width / depth) as well as the pinpoint imaging was what was commented on the most. Also the versatility with regards to handling different genres. Several also commented on dynamic capacity and the effortless delivery, not suprisingly.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
They also liked the retro loudspeaker stand, so I guess we need to go with something along those lines (we're looking into an alternative design now, but perhaps we'll just drop that)
I recall you said you wanted something more subtle under the speaker but I would counter that the frame highlights the natural wood band rather than detract from it.
That shot above gives a great view.

Sounds like you’ve a winner on your hands with that Manta!
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
I recall you said you wanted something more subtle under the speaker but I would counter that the frame highlights the natural wood band rather than detract from it.
That shot above gives a great view.

Sounds like you’ve a winner on your hands with that Manta!
Yes, I was testing (3D mockups) a design where the speaker rested on a thin 5mm steel plate so that the speaker itself seemed to float in the air, with a single column going down. Now I'm thinking maybe have the same design as this existing retro stand combined with a steel plate for the speaker itself, so that you keep the floating effect but with the current retro stand below. You would no longer have the frame along the wood then, though. :oops: We'll test it in 3D mockups and see how it looks.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, I was testing (3D mockups) a design where the speaker rested on a thin 5mm steel plate so that the speaker itself seemed to float in the air, with a single column going down. Now I'm thinking maybe have the same design as this existing retro stand combined with a steel plate for the speaker itself, so that you keep the floating effect but with the current retro stand below. You would no longer have the frame along the wood then, though. :oops: We'll test it in 3D mockups and see how it looks.
I also think that stand looks very good. Stands like that should not be way over the top either. I think that stand gives it a pro look. Of the people who visited, did any talk about placing hard cash for those speakers?
 
Sigberg Audio

Sigberg Audio

Audioholic
I also think that stand looks very good. Stands like that should not be way over the top either. I think that stand gives it a pro look. Of the people who visited, did any talk about placing hard cash for those speakers?
Since it's a prototype that are still many months away from even starting preorders, it wasn't a big subject. But I know of a few people who are waiting for them, and we also had a list where people could sign up if they were interested in being notified when preorders start, and got a handful of people who put their email on that. :)
 

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