Shooting at Dark Knight in CO. What is WRONG with some people?

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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
It's too bad the banning of guns is only a political agenda, and doesn't really have it's roots in public safety as some may think.

If guns never existed, we'd still be trying to deal with criminal intent.
That nut from Colorado could just as easily had Molotov cocktails and two super-soakers filled with gas.
I agree. Most public campaigns are strictly to gain votes, nothing else. That's why I'm generally down on politicians. I'm also not that nieve to think that banning guns wouldn't deter criminals from achieving their goals through other avenues. It just would make things more difficult and it may drop off of some of the less determined "master minds :rolleyes: " out there. I do believe however that tighter controls would have drastictly reduced the number of victims at Columbine and at this theater.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Sorry 3db, but your concept of American Civil Rights is way off base. The Second Amendment (Right to Bear Arms if you don't know), the one right after the 1st, Freedom of Speech, is in that spot for a reason. As Matt said, our right to possess firearms guarantees our freedom from despotic rule...British, radical Democrat or Republican, Canadian, Muslim, Catholic,...whatever tyrrany might befall the citizens of this country. If you think we, or you, or anyone anywhere in this world is not a potential subject to that kind of rule, you would be wrong. Ask any American how much trust they place in the "government" and you will see what I'm talking about.

Many, especially non-Americans, have been under tyrranical rule for so long that they don't recognize it, nor understand our Constitution. I've heard a lot of people try to argue that the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights is as outdated and full of dust and spiderwebs as a...."rusted out waterbarrel". Not true. It is a living document that made and keeps this country the strongest, most successful nation in the history of mankind.

Freedom is not defined by safety. I suggest you do a little reading about Ben Franklin, a great man, intellectual giant, and founding father of this country. He had this to say..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty."
I apologize if I came out a little harsh. Not my intent. Its clear that we will never agree on this so I'm leaving it alone now.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I apologize if I came out a little harsh. Not my intent. Its clear that we will never agree on this so I'm leaving it alone now.
No need to apologize, 3db. You didn't come off as harsh. Perhaps a little ill-informed about the American psyche, though. We enjoy freedoms that few others have. There is a reason for that. We're not okay with being "subjects". And you're probably right, we likely will never agree. You don't so much mind government control in your life and we do.

I take it you're not from this country. Canadian?

PS: Dialog about this issue can be inflammatory and indeed it was at the Constitutional Congress a couple of centuries ago. But it's a good and important dialog to have now as it was when people were generating the principles of the U.S. Constitution. Please take my words as dialog, and not as offensive or personally attacking. That is certainly not my intention. I wish to be informative and not speculative, or confrontive.
 
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Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I do believe however that tighter controls would have drastictly reduced the number of victims at Columbine and at this theater.
I do understand your perceived hope/outcome.
Given all the other options (sans guns) I think the number of victims would be greater.
In Columbine they placed a few propane tanks rigged to explode. (luckily they failed to detonate)
The nut in the theater was extremely intelligent. I shudder to think what he would've done/used if guns were banned or even if they didn't exist.

See, were back to realizing it's really the 'intent' we need to deal with.:)

Our government seems to care more about exponentially increasing the Federal and State taxation on ammo. Then threatening gun/ammo bans that increase hoarding, and steering that money to places other than land conservation, where it was originally intended.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
No need to apologize, 3db. You didn't come off as harsh. Perhaps a little ill-informed about the American psyche, though. We enjoy freedoms that few others have. There is a reason for that. We're not okay with being "subjects". And you're probably right, we likely will never agree. You don't so much mind government control in your life and we do.

I take it you're not from this country. Canadian?

PS: Dialog about this issue can be inflammatory and indeed it was at the Constitutional Congress a couple of centuries ago. But it's a good and important dialog to have now as it was when people were generating the principles of the U.S. Constitution. Please take my words as dialog, and not as offensive or personally attacking. That is certainly not my intention. I wish to be informative and not speculative, or confrontive.
No offense taken :)
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Healthy discussion never hurt anyone. ;)
I really love these nice civil discussions.
It's a nice change of pace from, "Find me a 5.1 system, with receiver...and I have no money?" Type of questions.:D
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I really love these nice civil discussions.
It's a nice change of pace from, "Find me a 5.1 system, with receiver...and I have no money?" Type of questions.:D
Yeah, those questions make me want to shoot someone.

:eek:
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I do understand your perceived hope/outcome.
Given all the other options (sans guns) I think the number of victims would be greater.
In Columbine they placed a few propane tanks rigged to explode. (luckily they failed to detonate)
The nut in the theater was extremely intelligent. I shudder to think what he would've done/used if guns were banned or even if they didn't exist.

See, were back to realizing it's really the 'intent' we need to deal with.:)
I said the same thing recently in response to Haraldo about the mass shooting in his country. If there were no guns at all, that would not stop a NUT from killing; they will just find another way.

This event wasn't an accidental "drive by" sort of thing. This guy had one purpose in going to the theater that night.

I am also glad to see that this thread has managed to maintain itself.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
All the gun controls in the world won't stop criminals, or wanna be criminals, from getting all the guns they want. They will just have to pay a little more and since when has price ever stopped a criminal?
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
gun control only controls those who can be controlled.

since gun ownership isn't in our PH constitution, we have some stupid politicians who regularly recommend cancelling the issuance of gun licenses. you wanna know what prompted his stupid suggestion?

some robbers with unlicensed weapons did a job somewhere with some people getting killed.

the politician's solution: let's stop issuing licensed weapons.

the ultimate facepalm-DOH moment

though it doesn't really apply in this particular case, since the weapons the CO. shooter used seems legit. you could add some more laws to augment the gun issuance requirements BUT

someone once said:
The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

a nation simply cannot have a law for every particular scenario.
 
CaliHwyPatrol

CaliHwyPatrol

Audioholic Chief
So, I was thinking about how to describe the feeling of getting shot while wearing actual body armor (even though I'm still under the impression that the shooter was wearing a tactical vest, which is not bullet proof) in terms that the average person could grasp. I've been trying to point out that even with a bullet proof vest, getting hit would still disorient or incapacitate a shooter. That brought me to baseball. Most people have held a baseball, are familiar with its size and weight, and some people at some point in their lives have been hit by one because that's how baseball works. :D

If my math is correct (with some rounding), getting shot by a .45 ACP round produces nearly the same kinetic energy as getting hit by a 200mph fastball.

Getting shot by a .50 AE round from a Desert Eagle (I figured it out because I have one :) ) would be like getting hit by a baseball moving at nearly 400mph.

Bottom line: Shooting an assailant with body armor may not kill them, but it definitely might stop them.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
that would depend if the person is wearing "soft" armor or "plates"

i work with metal armor plates, and it would depend on the "level of protection" and even the thickness of the plate e.g.
i have "pistol" protection plates between 2mm and 6mm ... if i wanted to survive and be lightweight, i'd use the 2mm ... if i didn't want to feel anything from the shot, i'd use 6mm.

i'm unfamiliar with ceramic plates and how they work
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Women carry full-auto in Israel: Israeli Girls Go for window shopping with a gun - Travel Forum - Traveler Mania
It's an interesting litmus test; wonder what the crime rates are.
It's not everyday crime that they're concerned about - it's terrorist attacks that they have to be prepared for. And, I think they have a legitimate fear. I'm glad I don't live in a society where one has enough fear of attack that it justifies carrying a weapon around in public.

deterring tyrannical government
Do you truly believe that there is a "clear and present danger" of your government becoming tyranical? There are so many checks and balances, that it's practically impossible for that to happen from within. As for "creeping tyranny", the constitution and courts are there to prevent that. A tyranical government would have to be imposed from without. I don't think there's any danger of that. Even if there was, that's what the military is there for.


All the gun controls in the world won't stop criminals, or wanna be criminals, from getting all the guns they want. They will just have to pay a little more and since when has price ever stopped a criminal?
You're right. However, is that a reason not to have any controls whatsoever? They don't catch every criminal for every crime, but that's not a reason to say "well, we can't catch every drunk driver or bank robber, so we might as well have no drunk driving or theft laws."

I have no problem with private firearms ownership. Any restrictions that are imposed should be justified, based on reason and not on knee-jerk emotion. Maybe my perspective stems from living in a different place, but I can not imagine feeling safe in a place where every other person is armed in public. It just generates more fear that the boogey-man is lurking around every corner, than making one feel safer.

I realize that not every other person in the USA is armed, but in order for there to be a reasonable chance of somebody being present and able to counter somebody like Holmes, a very high proportion of the general public must be armed. Whether it's reasonable or not, that would cause me more unease than the remote possibility of somebody like Holmes popping up.

Has anyone thought about the possibility of a "blue on blue" situation cropping up, if a high proportion of the general populace is armed in public? Picture this: A nutjob draws a pistol in a crowd and starts shooting. A "good guy" in the crowd draws his own weapon to shoot back. Then, I draw my weapon. Who do I shoot at? At the first guy, sure. What about the second guy? Is he a partner of the first guy? Will he shoot at me, if he sees me with a gun?

You can say, "Well, how likely is that?". I say, if enough people are armed in public, it's quite plausible. I'm just glad that I live in a place where nobody has that level of fear. As I stated before, a society that feels it must be armed in public, is a society that is afraid of itself. :(

Perhaps there should be more emphasis placed on determining the causes of of crime and instituting measures to reduce it, rather than just waiting for it to happen, shooting the criminals or throwing them in jail. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a "hug a thug" type. I'd just rather try to stop it from happening first.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Do you truly believe that there is a "clear and present danger" of your government becoming tyranical? There are so many checks and balances, that it's practically impossible for that to happen from within. As for "creeping tyranny", the constitution and courts are there to prevent that. A tyranical government would have to be imposed from without. I don't think there's any danger of that. Even if there was, that's what the military is there for.
There is no imminent danger of a tyranny, although a bit of creeping tyranny IS seen today. Tyrannical rule is unlikely and it is simply because we ARE armed that it won't happen. And we don't want a military junta, either, btw.

I think you Canucks are just jealous you didn't throw out the king. :D
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
There is no imminent danger of a tyranny, although a bit of creeping tyranny IS seen today. Tyrannical rule is unlikely and it is simply because we ARE armed that it won't happen. And we don't want a military junta, either, btw.

I think you Canucks are just jealous you didn't throw out the king. :D
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it won't happen because you have the rule of law and nobody sees a benefit in having rule by tyranny. Where do you see creeping tyranny?
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Do you truly believe that there is a "clear and present danger" of your government becoming tyranical? There are so many checks and balances, that it's practically impossible for that to happen from within. As for "creeping tyranny", the constitution and courts are there to prevent that. A tyranical government would have to be imposed from without. I don't think there's any danger of that. Even if there was, that's what the military is there for.
It's obviously not an immediate threat but the reason stood as one of the basis for the amendment which was my point in the response to 3db. It's one of those "checks and balances" that the people of this country hold.

I'm for reasonable, logical gun control. I'm not for knee-jerk, emotional, politically driven erosion of our rights. Which is exactly what happens after an event like this.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it won't happen because you have the rule of law and nobody sees a benefit in having rule by tyranny. Where do you see creeping tyranny?
"Rule of Law" is only enforceable via an armed populace, G-N.

Regarding creeping tyranny...the current president is the closest thing we've had (with the possible exception of Franklyn D. Roosevelt) to a dictator. He uses "Executive Orders" to wield said powers. Here are a few examples you can google and consider:

New Obama Executive Order Seeks ‘Control’ Over Communications During ‘Crisis’
New Obama Executive Order Seizes U.S. Infrastructure and Citizens for Military Preparedness
Obama Signed Executive Order Declaring War On Iran
Martial Law? Obama Issues Executive Order: ‘National Defense Resources Preparedness’
Obama’s Latest Executive Order: Martial Law, Confiscation of Private Property and Forced Labor
PDD 51 & New Executive Order Give Obama Dictator Power
Obama Executive Order Paves the Way for Nationalization of Economy
Obama Executive ‘Order’: US can seize any person, any resource, any time
Obama Seizes Control Over All Food Production Under Executive Order: Mike Adams Reports
Obama Expands Federal Power Over the States with Executive Order
Obama Executive Order Targets Fourth Amendment

PS: My typing sucks.
 
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