Separates vs. Integrated?

[WmAx]

And you should see what he considers his "clock radio" !

All kidding aside, you should post some pics/details some time. We all can't get our systems to the same type of performance but improvements can always come from inspiration.

BTW, thanks for the info in the other threads on the Behringer 2030Ps. I'm not a DIY guy but the stock performance is still great for my application.

My computer system is detailed, with pictures and measurements, in a thread in member systems gallery forum that was originally posted by Wafflesomd.

-Chris

 

[biz97]

Thanks for the info.

 

[croseiv]

Thank you for everyones input. Again....my question was....what's the better way to spend $2000? On an integrated or separates? If i'm spending the same $2000 on a separate amp/pre-amp combo...I would think there would have to be compromise as opposed to spending the whole $2000 on one piece.

You are welcome. I still recommend separates.

 

[WmAx]

To the OP: separates are always superior, if only for the fact that it leaves the possibility of inserting processors/xovers between the pre-amp and amplifier(s). For example, if you want to add subwoofers, but you want them to blend in transparently, this will only be possible if you use an active line level crossover system - such as a DCX2496. This would require separate input/output points between the amplifier(s) and pre-amps systems to execute. You can bring huge sound quality benefits by adding certain processing devices such as these.

-Chris

 

[Lordoftherings]

What I find somewhat disturbing is that you assume we are all lesser hobbyists because we have the ability to boost the signal well wthout blowing it on a Krell. Frankly, I'm about aural pleasure just as most of the people who frequent this website. Don't lump us into an "inferior group"...

I'm not, you are.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Nice meeting you Chris.

I assure you, your main system probably will not even compare to my computer monitor system - it would be a long shot. My systems are all about sound quality - and I have engineered/built/designed them to exceeding levels of performance/transparency - both measurably and audibly. I also ensure my acoustics are perfect - using unlimited levels of treatments to get the desired result(s). My standards for SQ are extreme - what most audiophiles might consider good - I consider utter mediocrity.

The sad fact is that with standard sensitivity speakers, a very large amplifier is required to prevent clipping on dynamic recordings. Some classical recordings have 30+ dB transients.

-Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't doubt you for a New York second.

Each one of us have different preference, different knowledge, different musical application, different level of investment...

Yes, me too, I'm very curious to see some pictures of your 2-channel stereo setup. I know that I won't be able to hear it, but at least it will give me an idea of what you're saying. I'll be my own judge of audio nirvana.
For now, my only tools are this thread, and the possibility to see what you mean. You seem to be a well footed and smart person, and talented too in this hobby of ours, Congratulations!

I enjoy different perspective.

And Jason, our OP, never mentioned the type of speakers used, or did he?

I agree with you about Classical music and the high swings in dynamics.
Personally, I prefer to go see a live classical opera in a well tuned hall, to fully appreciate the true grandeur of live classical music.
But that's just me.

* Here's a link (thread) here that I'm pretty fond of. There are people there that I know more than others. It is something that I take deeply at heart.
I did not participate in the discussion, for several resons, but the main one is that my profound belief that each power amplifier, pre-amplifier, integrated amplifier, stereo receiver or A/V surround receiver, sound different from each other. And this strong conviction has put me in great jeopardy, so much as to not express anymore my firm opinion as to not create a volcano of crashing flames of fire that could very inflame some very few stubborn people. But it is important that you absorbe the full thread.
If you're not so incline to do so, try at least to read the last five pages.
There are only 17 pages right now, as we speak.
It's not a test, it's not a challenge, it's not an objection; it's only a tip, irrelevant of what you or me are saying, just something that is coming.

Here's that link from AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1152773

* I'm not even saying the title of that thread, it's all there already, or coming soon anyway.

Best regards,

Bob

Note: By the way Chris, I'm not the type of person to say " My system sounds better than yours or it's bigger, or compare to yours, it's much more accurate and representative of what the sound engineer was listening at the time of his intention."
I'm much too smart for that; live music is the real deal, the true aural soul.
Home music system is just an approximation of that, at the very best.

 

[WmAx]

Hi Chris,

I don't doubt you for a New York second.

Each one of us have different preference, different knowledge, different musical application, different level of investment...

Yes, me too, I'm very curious to see some pictures of your 2-channel stereo setup. I know that I won't be able to hear it, but at least it will give me an idea of what you're saying. I'll be my own judge of audio nirvana.
For now, my only tools are this thread, and the possibility to see what you mean. You seem to be a well footed and smart person, and talented too in this hobby of ours, Congratulations!

I enjoy different perspective.

And Jason, our OP, never mentioned the type of speakers used, or did he?

I agree with you about Classical music and the high swings in dynamics.
Personally, I prefer to go see a live classical opera in a well tuned hall, to fully appreciate the true grandeur of live classical music.
But that's just me.

* Here's a link (thread) here that I'm pretty fond of. There are people there that I know more than others. It is something that I take deeply at heart.
I did not participate in the discussion, for several resons, but the main one is that my profound belief that each power amplifier, pre-amplifier, integrated amplifier, stereo receiver or A/V surround receiver, sound different from each other. And this strong conviction has put me in great jeopardy, so much as to not express anymore my firm opinion as to not create a volcano of crashing flames of fire that could very inflame some very few stubborn people. But it is important that you absorbe the full thread.
If you're not so incline to do so, at least get the last five pages.
There are only 17 pages right now, as we speak.
It's not a test, it's not a challenge, it's not an objection; it's only a tip, irrelevant of what you or me are saying, just something that is coming.

Here's that link from AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1152773

* I'm not even saying the title of that thread, it's all there already, or coming soon anyway.

Best regards,

Bob

I am not going to read the thread - as I am versed in human perception and history of blinded listening tests along the years. Frankly, I am well beyond such petty discussions common among the lesser informed. I do not mean for that to sound arrogant - it's just the scenario I percieve. Please understand, I have invested thousands (literally) of hours into [credible scientific] research - reading - experiments under controlled conditions - related to audio reproduction and speaker design/engineering. There is no credible evidence to suggest that there is an unique and non-measurable component to audibility from an amplifier, source or other device. There are some devices that modify the signal enough to be audible - but that is uncommon. This is usually only probable with certain high end gear that has built in frequency response differences or other signal modifications as to be audibly different. SET tube amps come to mind here.... I personally only use devices that do not produce coloration with the exception of my turn table of course, which I have tried to get the most accurate one possible - but vinyl playback is always highly variable. However, it has been shown that psychological variable can easily induce a perceived audible difference when one is not truly present.

For anyone to claim otherwise (in regards to unmeasurable sound difference in hardware) after knowing of this history and the science of human perception in regards to controlled listening studies is to avoid objective analysis and rational thought. Of course, most are not aware of this data - so I understand the assumptions that are being made. I used to be a typical audiophile myself - with similar views - but only due to my ignorance at the time.

As to know more about my systems, you can find info about my computer audio system in the thread I referenced earlier in this thread. My main listening system has been written about by another poster of this forum and can be found in the review forum. The person that evaluated/wrote about that was a user named jaxvon. It might be on page 5 or 6 or something - back a bit. I don't have the link - but you should be able to find it pretty easily. Jaxvon only has 2 or 3 reviews in the review forum. You can also find a picture of the main speakers in that thread. My hardware is not shown in that thread, however. So, I'll provide a link to my amplifier/pre-amp/xover/source set up: http://www.linaeum.com/images/wmaxcomponents_1.jpg

Nothing exotic except maybe for the turn table. The pre-amp is a medium high end HT receiver that has incredibly well measuring pre-amp section (Yamaha RX-V2600) and my source is a Marantz 5 disc changer. My amplification is 3 Yamaha professional amplifiers. The other device is a digital crossover system; my speakers are fully active. I don't deal with passive xovers anymore. I used to use high end hardware once upon a time.... but I found it only good for cosmetics. I found far more functional (and lower priced gear) to be the ticket - and not a single bit of SQ was given up in the process.


-Chris

 

[Lordoftherings]

My computer system is detailed, with pictures and measurements, in a thread in member systems gallery forum that was originally posted by Wafflesomd.

-Chris

Any link Chris to help people like me that don't know yet about it?
I don't even know which direction to aim for!

Bob

P.S. I did add a note on my prior post.

P.P.S. Excusez moi, Pardon! I did not realise that I was addressing an Audio Guru of the High Class of Elites.

 

[WmAx]

Any link Chris to help people like me that don't know yet about it?

Bob

Uhm, you can find the link as easily as I can.... the exact location is specified in the quote you highlighted.

-Chris

 

[Lordoftherings]

Uhm, you can find the link as easily as I can.... the exact location is specified in the quote you highlighted.

-Chris

Got you, I did notice, I just asked you to see if you'll take the time of providing the direct link. I guess not.

 

[3db]

If I had an extra $2,000 to spend on a 2-channel stereo amp, I'll get that Krell Integrated amp
S-300i in a New York minute. I already have some nice speakers that will match it very nicely.
But that's just me.

* I don't need 850 watts or 1 kilowatt, I just want a pure way to amplify the signal in the most natural way, with great musicality, strong & tight bottom octaves, liquid midrange and angelic treble.
I'm all about true aural pleasure, and not hearing destruction.
My taste in music recordings are Classical, Jazz, Blues, Soul, Folk & Acoustic everything from these classes.
Megadeth and Metallica, no thank you very much.
But that's just me.

Your set of ears, your set of choices.

Krell would be the furthestfrom my list of over priced boutigue electronics. For that money, I would only look at Bryston. Why? They are the only manufacturer I know of that offers a full 20 year wrranty on their product. I've read reports where Bryston even replaced 30 yr old products taht were clearly out of warranty but did it as a warranty replacement. You buy Bryston and you are literally set for life. Buts a damper in upgrade itis I know .

 

[3db]

I currently own a NAD C352 integrated amp and want to upgrade. Let's say I want to budget for $2000. Would it be better to spread that amount between a separate amp/pre-amp combo, or get a $2000 integrated amp? At what level does an integrated amp exceed the performance/sound of separtes at the same price point?
It would seem to me (at a $2000 price point) that with an integrated amp...a designer/engineer could really tweak all the parts to sound their best together. Like a synergistic effect. They KNOW everything about the sonics of the the amp and pre-amp that are going into one chassis and can design them to work together. Kind of the way digital/active speakers are designed. Also keeping in mind, fewer interconnects and one less power cord to upgrade.

If this strictly 2 channel sound, I would go with an integrated amp unless you have plans for incorporating into a multi channel audio/HT system later on. A 100w/channel integrated amp is much mor formidable than a 100w/channel multichannel receiver as the powersupply in the integrated only needs to deal with 2 channels so the power reserves will be much greater than for multichannel. This is very general I know but I'm talking about manufacturers in the 2K region of which you speak. A seperate 2 channel amp in my book is overkill for music listening is overkill

 

[Lordoftherings]

Krell would be the furthestfrom my list of over priced boutigue electronics. For that money, I would only look at Bryston. Why? They are the only manufacturer I know of that offers a full 20 year wrranty on their product. I've read reports where Bryston even replaced 30 yr old products taht were clearly out of warranty but did it as a warranty replacement. You buy Bryston and you are literally set for life. Buts a damper in upgrade itis I know .

It amazes me to see people jump just at a simple frank and valid suggestion to Jason, our OP.

Of course Bryston make some excellent integratred amps too. And their warranty is unique. And it's made in my own country, close to where I was born.

But for God sake, what's wrong with my opinion about this nice Krell integrated amp?
People cannot respect a simple suggestion anymore, or what?

A separate amp and a pre-amp takes more room in your rack, and you still have to buy interconnects between them.
That Krell was build with a definite purpose in mind, and it is simplicity with top notch performance. And that's what some people are after.

I rest my case.

 

[Jason Lopez]

It amazes me to see people jump just at a simple frank and valid suggestion to Jason, our OP.

Of course Bryston make some excellent integratred amps too. And their warranty is unique. And it's made in my own country, close to where I was born.

But for God sake, what's wrong with my opinion about this nice Krell integrated amp?
People cannot respect a simple suggestion anymore, or what?

A separate amp and a pre-amp takes more room in your rack, and you still have to buy interconnects between them.
That Krell was build with a definite purpose in mind, and it is simplicity with top notch performance. And that's what some people are after.

I rest my case.

I'm actually considering the Krell. I'm also looking at three other amps. The NAD M3, the Musical Fidelity A5.5, and the Vincent SK 236 MKII Hybrid. Any input? It's a very competitive price point!

 

[WmAx]

I'm actually considering the Krell. I'm also looking at three other amps. The NAD M3, the Musical Fidelity A5.5, and the Vincent SK 236 MKII Hybrid. Any input? It's a very competitive price point!

So, are you just looking for a 'pretty' amplifier? Because the extra money your spending is going only towards cosmetics, not functionality or audibility. I mean, I used to use 'high end' hardware exclusively and I can appreciate the cosmetics.... but I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish.

-Chris

 

[Jason Lopez]

So, are you just looking for a 'pretty' amplifier? Because the extra money your spending is going only towards cosmetics, not functionality or audibility. I mean, I used to use 'high end' hardware exclusively and I can appreciate the cosmetics.... but I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish.

-Chris

Better sound than my current amp. A clean, simple system with excellent build quality and reliability. Beautifully handcrafted components can inspire a pride in ownership. I gotta live with the gear as well as listen to it. Most of the time your sitting right in front of the suff, staring at it while your listening to it. RIGHT?

 

[walter duque]

Better sound than my current amp. A clean, simple system with excellent build quality and reliability. Beautifully handcrafted components can inspire a pride in ownership. I gotta live with the gear as well as listen to it. Most of the time your sitting right in front of the suff, staring at it while your listening to it. RIGHT?

Check out Belles Amps. This is an excellent company. I had one of their poweramps for 25 years and it was always on, the only time it ever got turned off is when I moved. I abused that amp for many years and never had a problem. Sold it off last year to Hollywood Sound for more than what I paid for it in 84. Very solid handcrafted Equipment. I'll put these amps right upthere with Krell or Bryston, IMO better.
http://www.powermodules.com/power_modules/Products_menu.html

 

[WmAx]

Better sound than my current amp. A clean, simple system with excellent build quality and reliability. Beautifully handcrafted components can inspire a pride in ownership. I gotta live with the gear as well as listen to it. Most of the time your sitting right in front of the suff, staring at it while your listening to it. RIGHT?

Unless your current amp simply can not drive the load your speakers present to them, which the result would be limited dynamic headroom before clipping started, then you won't improve the SQ. There is nothing credible to suggest otherwise. If I remember correctly, you stated in a past thread you used Phase Tech 9.1 or some similar model? I believe those are 4 Ohm nominal speakers as rated by the manufacturer - but one really needs to see a proper impedance/electrical phase plot to know the exact needs of the speaker.

But, just assume it has some broad lower mid-range dips down to 3 Ohms, with some fairly reactive behavior; just go for a good quality 4 Ohm rated amplifier with excess power capability. Probably look for a minimum of 250 watts into 4 Ohms, 20Hz-20,000Hz, rated, to ensure plenty of headroom.

A perfectly transparent low cost amp that meets the requirement wold be for example a Yamaha P2500S (over 300x2 into 4 Ohms, 20hz-20,000Hz). Of course, this amp is not pretty enough for you, so I know you won't want it... but it would be an example of an amp that will easily drive your speakers transparently to very high levels with no problem.

If you really want to enhance SQ, insert a device like the Behringer DCX2496 between the pre-amp and amplifier. This will allow you to adjust critical aspects of the speaker system such as the baffle step compensation (it is almost NEVER correct on a passive xover speaker - since it has to be actually adjusted to every particular position/room interface - so it comes down to pure chance - and this being adjusted properly will mean the difference between many things like vocals, piano, etc. sounding realistic or not...) and the mid to upper treble graduation, using a shelving filter, as has been specified as a critical factor in perceived neutral tonality by various researchers. Again, an active device like the DCX will allow easy adjustment to your ideals. As a bonus, if you ever add subs, the DCX will allow it to be done transparently due it's extremely powerful crossover variables. It can also be used for low frequency room correction and to adjust the subjective 'tightness' of bass.

-Chris

 

[walter duque]

I just checked with one of my sources the Krell S 300i can be picked up for $1625.00 no tax.

 

[WmAx]

I just checked with one of my sources the Krell S 300i can be picked up for $1625.00 no tax.

Does that integrated unit have direct pre-out and amp input loop so you can insert an external processor between the internal pre-amp and internal amplifier sections? If not, it's a really limited unit, and you totally miss out on the vast SQ improvement that can be achieved by using a device like the DCX2496.

-Chris