Selecting AVR and speakers mainly for home audio

J

joshk03

Audioholic
Hi, what a coincidence, Mr joshk03.
It so happens that I have bought a Denon AVR X2400H and had purchased a Bose Revolve 360° sound Bluetooth speaker a little earlier and been very happy with playing around with it by streaming music from my smart phone.
I, too, am very much distracted by the contents of TV. But I am always fascinated by the music, mostly classic and by and large by the other types of music. And so after much deliberations I chose to buy just three speakers for the present, (I may go for more and a sub at some time later): one Definitive technology CS 8040 HD for the main center speaker and two Definitive technology SM 45 (though these have been discontinued for production by the company, but these are superb speakers and now available at a discount). However, as these are to be imported from the USA, I'm yet to receive these, may be in ten to fourteen days.
You see I live in India. Where do you live Mr Joshk03; I'm just curious, you may choose not to answer if I am treading a bit too far. But there's a reason in my asking this question. The AVR that I bought in India is region specific, works on Indian voltage conditions, that is, 220-240 V. Now the speakers from USA and all equipments demand voltage of only 110V they say.
Now, can anybody enlighten me over this issue. Do the passive speakers which get power from an AVR powered on 220-240V, should have an issue with the voltage conditions? Or the AVR could just automatically adjust the power requirements of the speakers connected with it.
Thanks.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
I don't think there's any Bose love on this forum :)
Your speakers are discontinued. I'm in the US. The voltage from the wall is converted to 1 specific DC voltage to power the circuit board inside, and that internal voltage doesn't depend on country.
 
O

OM PRAKASH DWIVEDI

Enthusiast
I don't think there's any Bose love on this forum :)
Your speakers are discontinued. I'm in the US. The voltage from the wall is converted to 1 specific DC voltage to power the circuit board inside, and that internal voltage doesn't depend on country.
One heavy load is off my shoulders. Now I can connect my speakers, when they arrive, with the AVR without bothering about the voltage considerations. This was a question nagging me all the time, but no one bothered to address it. Thank you very much. One thing. Those speakers are discontinued all right, but Crutchfield and all those who matter have given ravenous ratings and showered praise on these. Have I made a mistake in ordering them? Here in India, speakers imported from US cost almost double to trible. As a retired person I have to keep an eye on the budget, shouldn't I? What do you think about it? Thanks again. Would be waiting for your take on my choice.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
I don't think there's any Bose love on this forum :)
Your speakers are discontinued. I'm in the US. The voltage from the wall is converted to 1 specific DC voltage to power the circuit board inside, and that internal voltage doesn't depend on country.
You caught on. There isn't much respect for Bose in audio/hi-fi circles because they long put out low-perfoming, cheaply made drivers and speaker cabinets for premium pricing.

Today they do make some fine, highly respected products in headphones, a good soundbar or two, and a couple decent "lifestyle" audio products. I still won't buy any because of how they shifted 350 tech support people to a contractor in the Phillippines.
 
J

joshk03

Audioholic
One heavy load is off my shoulders. Now I can connect my speakers, when they arrive, with the AVR without bothering about the voltage considerations.
Well be sure the receiver says it can accept 100-240 voltsAC at 50-60Hz. This means it can get that wall voltage down to the circuit board voltage safely. It it says something like 100-125 voltsAC at 60Hz, then it means it can't get the wall voltage down to the circuit board voltage safely. Most stuff sold these days is either automatic like in my first example, or has a tiny red switch in the back to change from back and forth for different countries.

PS - if it does have a red switch in back and you bought it from the US, it will be in the wrong position when it arrives.
 
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J

joshk03

Audioholic
Well it turns out the mall has a Best Buy. I was able to listen to Sony, Polk, and Klipsch systems. I recognized the Sony name, so I started there. I was was flat-out disappointed. Even compared to my little BT speaker it was a huge WTF.
So I moved on to the Klipsch. They were better, but not what I expected for the cost. I couldn't help but notice that the drivers were a lackluster 3.5", maybe 4". And these things cost $1000 for the pair! Turning on the optional 12" Sub really made it sound much better, but there was a huge response gap between the 12" sub driver and the 3.5" drivers. That seems like a poor design choice, even to me. Where is the 6" driver to fill in the gap?
The Polk didn't sound much better than the Sony, so I ruled them out too.
Overall, I left disappointed with everything I experienced.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
Would you happen to have an Amazon account? They have a generous return policy, and good brands. I'm an admitted fanboy, but still encourage you to try some KEF Q series.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Well it turns out the mall has a Best Buy. I was able to listen to Sony, Polk, and Klipsch systems. I recognized the Sony name, so I started there. I was was flat-out disappointed. Even compared to my little BT speaker it was a huge WTF.
So I moved on to the Klipsch. They were better, but not what I expected for the cost. I couldn't help but notice that the drivers were a lackluster 3.5", maybe 4". And these things cost $1000 for the pair! Turning on the optional 12" Sub really made it sound much better, but there was a huge response gap between the 12" sub driver and the 3.5" drivers. That seems like a poor design choice, even to me. Where is the 6" driver to fill in the gap?
The Polk didn't sound much better than the Sony, so I ruled them out too.
Overall, I left disappointed with everything I experienced.
a disappointing experience at a big box store like BB ? I am shocked. Nearly speechless. :)
Since coming back in to a serious attempt at an audio upgrade for my listening pleasure a year or so ago, I have made a couple of trips to the BB for a listen. I was thoroughly disappointed with every aspect.
I know there are folks here on the forum who patronize BB and have nice things to say. Fair enough.
But, for me and for a serious listening experience, BB holds no magic for me.

Keep the faith though! There are great options out there. With some work, some patience, and some benjamins, you can get to a really great listening experience.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Our "local" BB has no speaker listening setup, just poorly setup speakers in the aisle in a huge warehouse. Hard way to listen to or judge speakers, personally worthless and I only went there once and the manager confirmed that they don't sell enough to ever bother changing. Depends on store I suppose, where I lived before they had the Magnolia within the store, and they did a better job of speaker setup but still not very good.

Mostly I think you just need to concentrate on better speakers than what you've listened to and start with perhaps other than these "sets" of speakers that you leave us guessing at as to specific models (brand name alone means pretty much nothing).
 
J

joshk03

Audioholic
Would you happen to have an Amazon account? They have a generous return policy, and good brands. I'm an admitted fanboy, but still encourage you to try some KEF Q series.
Yea I have an Amazon account. It's not a bad idea, though I bet return shipping would be expensive.

Keep the faith though! There are great options out there. With some work, some patience, and some benjamins, you can get to a really great listening experience.
idk. At this point I am feeling like for every one choice I rule out, another 10 take it's place. I might just save some money and give up.

Mostly I think you just need to concentrate on better speakers than what you've listened to and start with perhaps other than these "sets" of speakers that you leave us guessing at as to specific models (brand name alone means pretty much nothing).
That's the thing, If I'm not impressed by $1500 speakers, which are above my budget anyway, then it seems there is nothing for me. As far as not knowing the models, sorry. The touchscreen was broken on the Klipsch display and before my experience was complete the volume took itself to 100% and the screen stopped responding. An angry BB employee came over and gave me some attitude, until he realized it was all their fault. Then he tried and failed to get the touchscreen to work again. The 12" sub was at maximum volume and flickering ON/OFF and it really pissed me and everyone else off. I left without kneeling down on the floor to read the model of the speakers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You may not need to pay return shipping with Amazon. I've even read of a few instances that instead of allowing a return on a sub due shipping issues the consumer got credit and got to keep the sub. I'm a Prime member and haven't ever paid return shipping on an item (but didn't try and return the speakers I've ordered thru them).

The driving just isn't worth it to me, I'm fine with experimenting on the internet with some research. Just keep terms in mind, there are even some nice free return shipping trials available out there (SVS, RSL). Speaking of RSL, bet these could work well enough for now altho better for your next space https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg3-5-1-home-theater-system-special-edition/

There's a lot of choices, that's for sure. Takes a while to filter through it all. Maybe simply start smaller, like with a good pair of speakers and a receiver, then as you save money you'll have better quality choices as you add speakers/subs. Does also depend how important it is for you at this point and a budget now vs a little longer term. A lot of us spend far too much time dwelling on it, even if we're not consuming it :)

Got much available on craigslist in your area? Can be a good way on a budget with speakers particularly if they're in good shape...electronics I like to start with a solid warranty these days if you want somewhat recent feature set.




Yea I have an Amazon account. It's not a bad idea, though I bet return shipping would be expensive.


idk. At this point I am feeling like for every one choice I rule out, another 10 take it's place. I might just save some money and give up.


That's the thing, If I'm not impressed by $1500 speakers, which are above my budget anyway, then it seems there is nothing for me. As far as not knowing the models, sorry. The touchscreen was broken on the Klipsch display and before my experience was complete the volume took itself to 100% and the screen stopped responding. An angry BB employee came over and gave me some attitude, until he realized it was all their fault. Then he tried and failed to get the touchscreen to work again. The 12" sub was at maximum volume and flickering ON/OFF and it really pissed me and everyone else off. I left without kneeling down on the floor to read the model of the speakers.
 
J

joshk03

Audioholic
With Amazon it's the reason you choose that determines if you pay return shipping. If the reason is it arrived damaged, you get free return shipping. If the reason is that you don't want it anymore, you pay return shipping. I always select honestly. It will go to trash if you say it is damaged.

That graphic in the center of the page you linked to actually illustrates something I have been interested in experimenting with the last few days... I'm thinking the ideal speaker box would be made of cement to prevent resonance. And lined with excellent padding to prevent reflections. A Google search found http://www.concrete-audio.com/en/ so I guess it is a thing. It's not mass-produce-able and shipping fees would be insane. But it could make a fun $30 experiment :) Or for $60 I could make a set. I think that would be educational.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
With Amazon it's the reason you choose that determines if you pay return shipping. If the reason is it arrived damaged, you get free return shipping. If the reason is that you don't want it anymore, you pay return shipping. I always select honestly. It will go to trash if you say it is damaged.

That graphic in the center of the page you linked to actually illustrates something I have been interested in experimenting with the last few days... I'm thinking the ideal speaker box would be made of cement to prevent resonance. And lined with excellent padding to prevent reflections. A Google search found http://www.concrete-audio.com/en/ so I guess it is a thing. It's not mass-produce-able and shipping fees would be insane. But it could make a fun $30 experiment :) Or for $60 I could make a set. I think that would be educational.
I wasn't implying you would look to Amazon for free auditions, unlike the satisfaction guaranteed home trials some internet-direct speaker/sub companies will do (like SVS or RSL). Although if you're a very good customer that could still be an option I'd think depending on specifics. I've only returned products when something's missing, incorrect, non-functioning, breaks within a short time, that sort of thing.

Why did the link to the RSL CG3 Special Edition 5.1 speaker/sub set remind you of cement? I have read about the cement speakers, tho. I prefer building mine with plywood, thanks. MDF is messy. DIY speakers of course a good way to go...check out diysoundgroup.com offerings.
 
J

joshk03

Audioholic
I know, Ken brought up Amazon's return policy in a previous post, and it came up again. It was a mystery to me when I first began on Amazon why they didn't consistently give free returns. Then I figured it out.

The graphic in the middle of the page shows the sound bouncing all over and making a mess. Since we have been talking bookshelf, floor-standing, and every style under the sun I was thinking about best design, and I saw this in my imagination. (I love designing things.) Obviously a speaker makes an equal and opposite pressure wave going backward. Like a speaker facing inward. Now that explains the vibrating-wood sound you hear from a bookshelf speaker. So I wondered what would resist vibration. Cement came to mind, and I could 3D print molds. But then I again imagined those pressure waves in the speaker bouncing back to the cone and DRIVING it. That's no good at all, so then I thought it could be filled with an acoustic insulation or just a bathroom towel. So there was the solution, a speaker that does not turn it's wooden panels into a driver or re-drive itself. Then I saw the graphic on your link and decided to share. I really love designing things.
 
J

joshk03

Audioholic
lovinthehd, remember on the other thread you asked why I wanted floor-standing speakers? And I said because the best speakers I have heard were floorstanders and I figured the design had something to do with it. With a little more thought I figured the large chamber was a capacitor for stopping internal waves without transferring them outward. Then I sat staring at the wall.. and the rest is covered in my last post :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Sometimes I remember, sometimes not, sometimes I reread, sometimes not. :)

Well, there are enclosed speakers, infinite baffle, or how about some dipole speakers, all sorts of goodies out there in speaker designs. Maybe you'd like to consider these http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGi. I had a pair of Carver Amazing Speakers at one time, a combination of a dipole and ribbon design. Fragile.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
idk. At this point I am feeling like for every one choice I rule out, another 10 take it's place. I might just save some money and give up.

That's the thing, If I'm not impressed by $1500 speakers, which are above my budget anyway, then it seems there is nothing for me.
Joshk03
You said a key phrase in your post. I have a firm policy for audio upgrades. I would much rather take the time and save the money to KNOW I'm investing in an upgrade rather than a quick purchase hoping its an upgrade. Lots and lots of people come here and post after they've made a purchase on some shaky premise and are unhappy with the sound or disappointed its no "upgrade" at all.

The folks who ultimately get it right and are much happier with the results are folks like yourself who are doing the research and resisting the temptation for a quick fix. Speakers are the voice of your music system. There's a fair amount of data that will tell you if a speaker is an upgrade from where you are, but, ultimately you have to listen to it to gain the confidence it is truly an upgrade.

You weren't impressed by $1500 speakers on that day in that location. Fair enough. There are truly some impressive speakers for $1500 out there. There are some very impressive speakers for a lot less. Enjoy the journey in searching them out. On this forum there are probably 1/2 dozen speakers that get a lot of love in your price range. Great sounding stuff.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Joshk03
You said a key phrase in your post. I have a firm policy for audio upgrades. I would much rather take the time and save the money to KNOW I'm investing in an upgrade rather than a quick purchase hoping its an upgrade. Lots and lots of people come here and post after they've made a purchase on some shaky premise and are unhappy with the sound or disappointed its no "upgrade" at all.

The folks who ultimately get it right and are much happier with the results are folks like yourself who are doing the research and resisting the temptation for a quick fix. Speakers are the voice of your music system. There's a fair amount of data that will tell you if a speaker is an upgrade from where you are, but, ultimately you have to listen to it to gain the confidence it is truly an upgrade.

You weren't impressed by $1500 speakers on that day in that location. Fair enough. There are truly some impressive speakers for $1500 out there. There are some very impressive speakers for a lot less. Enjoy the journey in searching them out. On this forum there are probably 1/2 dozen speakers that get a lot of love in your price range. Great sounding stuff.
Buck, you talking 5.1 sets or pairs or ?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The red line is the built-in laptop speakers I had been using. The green line is the Bose I listen to now. Seems like decent highs and lows to my eye. 1/3 octave smoothing.
Nice that you use REW despite limited gear (thus far)!
Obviously, built-in laptop speakers have some severe space constraints and are a "low bar" for sound quality comparison.
At first glance, your Bose plot looks surprisingly good; however the main reason it looks good is because the y scale is extremely compressed! Having a minimum value of negative 50 dB doesn't make sense as SPL can never be less than zero! It looks like your plot is centered at SPL=60, so I would set the bottom limit to about 40dB since 20dB down is out of the picture any way (20dB is a huge change in perceived level).
If your speakers followed the green line up to where they cross around 1500Hz, then switched to the red line, that would be a decent response for a portable BT speaker!
As is, your Bose has great performance from 70 to 700Hz (although some serious smoothing is being applied, but we'll just read the plot as is)! Then we see a 7dB increase as we go to 1300Hz followed by an abysmal 17dB drop by the time you get to 4.5kHz. As a general rule of thumb, anything down by over 10dB is going to be "absent" from a SQ perspective when listening to music.
So across the "high midrange" (2-6kHz), which is one of the areas our ears are most astute, you have a dramatic drop-off (I should probably call it a drop-out, because it is really gone at -17dB).
Looking at recording engineer guidelines:
~4kHz is the domain of percussive attacks
4-6kHz is where clarity and definition are conveyed, and
6-20kHz are where "brightness/crispness" are conveyed.

So, I would expect you are very happy with the fullness/warmth of the sound of your Bose, which is really pretty decent below 1500Hz, given its size. However, the Bose will sound a bit dull, and, as you listen to quality speakers, you will be thoroughly impressed with the detail and crispness they bring to the table. The unique thing about the Bose is they appear to have chosen to focus on the lower end, which is the most difficult aspect of a small speaker, at the expense of the upper end, which should be easy - as you laptop shows (though your laptop may have lots of distortion at those frequencies, which would not show on the FR plot).

If I can assume as your criteria $1000 max for a pair of speakers and no cost to trial (free return shipping), I would suggest you trial the SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers. I have heard plenty of speakers and feel these are very good for their price point. They will have enough bass (obviously tons more than you have now) for most music. Then you can add a subwoofer later if you so decide.
https://www.svsound.com/collections/ultra-series/products/ultra-bookshelf

I also think the RSL 2.1 system previously mentioned represents a good option.
https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg23-2-1-stereo-speaker-system/

Note that you can save $200 by getting the cg3 2.1 system instead of the cg23 2.1 system. If you are listening close to your speakers (like a desktop setup), I would recommend the cg3, but if you want to use them in you living room and have some decent volume, the cg23 are what you should get.

Ideally, you can float both the SVS and RSL speakers on your credit card and have them in your house at the same time to compare. Keep the one you like better (or return both if you don't like either - I think you'll love both), both of these companies will refund your money and pay return shipping without any hassle - they understand that is necessary if they are going to succeed (and both have been around for well over a decade).

Last, I would suggest you consider buying a refurbished AVR from Acessories4Less. As a rule, you can buy a lot more receiver for the same money (or get the same AVR for a lot less); however, always check pricing at Amazon, because there are ocassionally deals on discontinued AVR's where it may cost just a bit more for a nib discontinued AVR, for example! I have bought several AVR's from them and all have worked perfectly.
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/avreceiver/home-audio/receivers-amps/home-theater-receivers/1.html?store_price[]=101-2400&brand_f[]=DENON

Best wishes

PS - If/when you call RSL or SVS, talk to them, they offer excellent customer service and you might as well get some of that goody. Be honest, if you are doing the comparison I suggest above, I say let them know up front. Trust me, you are not the first to buy speakers knowing there is a 50% chance of return (often less, if a 3 or 4 way comparison is being made).
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
With Amazon it's the reason you choose that determines if you pay return shipping. If the reason is it arrived damaged, you get free return shipping. If the reason is that you don't want it anymore, you pay return shipping. I always select honestly. It will go to trash if you say it is damaged.

That graphic in the center of the page you linked to actually illustrates something I have been interested in experimenting with the last few days... I'm thinking the ideal speaker box would be made of cement to prevent resonance. And lined with excellent padding to prevent reflections. A Google search found http://www.concrete-audio.com/en/ so I guess it is a thing. It's not mass-produce-able and shipping fees would be insane. But it could make a fun $30 experiment :) Or for $60 I could make a set. I think that would be educational.
The speakers I have returned to Amazon, I listed "not as described".
Invariably, the "ad copy" will make some ridiculous statement like "no compromise design" (in a budget speaker) or "5 in. Kevlar woofer for astounding bottom end punch" (I was not astounded, lol). But Amazon does not require an explanation for "not as described".

If you are serious about the concrete speaker, start a thread in the DIY sub-forum! You can certainly eliminate resonances and the guys there can set you up with a good design.
The biggest difficulty (I imagine) is getting the holes/mounts for the speakers and ports right.
There are some very nice kits out there with drivers and professionally designed crossovers. As long as you calculate the internal volume of your concrete cabinet, you should be good to go!
 
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