Sealed box for Mule????

[Buckeyefan 1]

.....Buck, you're like me....I love the tightness of the subs in a car....you have advised the Cadence to me thinking it will fill the bill for my need in my home...is that still your position?.....

With a budget under $500 in mind, I don't think there's any question that's the right sub. It's a very tight, overpowered, small box that hits like Evander Holyfield, and will go down to 30Hz with pizzaz if placed properly in a corner. It's run with a class a/b amp, which is IMHO preferred for higher midbass frequencies -the ones you are looking for - above 50Hz. You'd have to spend over $1000 to match it's output in a sealed enclosure with the proper amp. It's one of the few sub $300 12" units that doesn't sound "boomy" or "sloppy." If you don't like it, they'll take it back. Outstanding customer service.

 

[WmAx]

With a budget under $500 in mind, I don't think there's any question that's the right sub. It's a very tight, overpowered, small box that hits like Evander Holyfield, and will go down to 30Hz with pizzaz if placed properly in a corner. It's run with a class a/b amp, which is IMHO preferred for higher midbass frequencies -the ones you are looking for - above 50Hz. You'd have to spend over $1000 to match it's output in a sealed enclosure with the proper amp. It's one of the few sub $300 12" units that doesn't sound "boomy" or "sloppy." If you don't like it, they'll take it back. Outstanding customer service.

'Boominess' is a function of frequency response[a primary enclosure alignment function] and room/environment acoustics. One can make a $100 12" driver sound superb, and a $1000 12" driver sound like garbage, depending on these factors. The main difference between more expensive subwoofers is simply higher SPL potential and non-linear distortion at higher SPLs due to the motor/suspension design(s). So far as the type of amplifier: so long as an amplifier outputs the power needed at a relative low distortion and low noise and has a flat response within the used bandwidth, it does not matter if it's class A, A/B or a PWM(D) amplifier.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Surely he could build a 12" sealed box for cheaper than this???
No??????

Surely, he can, and should. Refer to several Peerless drivers, Parts Express house brand drivers, or other proven alternative driver examples for high value and performance. Add one $99 DSP parameteric equalizer for room corrections. I would only recommend the very high SPL drivers for specific circumstances that require them or for simply the 'cool' factor of having such a capable[and excessive] driver.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

Surely he could build a 12" sealed box for cheaper than this???
No??????

EDIT::: Or have it built by a friend. = The cost of material (1 sheet cheap 3/4 mdf) and a good 12" or 15" sealable driver. Polk, Kicker, MTX, Rockford Fosgate, etc.. come to mind. And each will have a manual on exact specs for box to be built.

.....Brian, I only wish I could have had the listening experiences you had in that sub shop that made sealed enclosures....and, I may take a run at a sealed box attempt one day myself, but I'm going to get one of the Cadence subs and play with it....if it don't settle my grits from 10 paces, I will look on, and there will be no problem finding a home for it....thank you, WmAx and Buck......

 

[brian32672]

One can make a $100 12" driver sound superb, and a $1000 12" driver sound like garbage, depending on these factors. The main difference between more expensive subwoofers is simply higher SPL potential and non-linear distortion at higher SPLs due to the motor/suspension design(s). So far as the type of amplifier: so long as an amplifier outputs the power needed at a relative low distortion and low noise and has a flat response within the used bandwidth, it does not matter if it's class A, A/B or a PWM(D) amplifier.

-Chris

Well this is partially what I am getting at. Say he gets the amp that hits 830 watts at 0.03thd rated power. And builds a sealed sub for the 100.00 your saying. Would he be better with controlling (and imaging the bass sound) with a sealed box or ported box? With the amount of punch he wants for the exact range of 50 - 150 and be able to feel it?

 

[mulester7]

Surely, he can, and should. Refer to several Peerless drivers, Parts Express house brand drivers, or other proven alternative driver examples for high value and performance. Add one $99 DSP parameteric equalizer for room corrections. I would only recommend the very high SPL drivers for specific circumstances that require them or for simply the 'cool' factor of having such a capable[and excessive] driver.

-Chris

.....and I may do just that, Chris....my appetite is whetted for a sealed box experience in my home....I know the authority and punch/edge it brings in a car....nite, guys........

 

[WmAx]

Well this is partially what I am getting at. Say he gets the amp that hits 830 watts at 0.03thd rated power. And builds a sealed sub for the 100.00 your saying. Would he be better with controlling (and imaging the bass sound) with a sealed box or ported box? With the amount of punch he wants for the exact range of 50 - 150 and be able to feel it?

I still must recommend two subwoofers[one near each main] if such a high frequency[150Hz] is used as the crossover point. Because of the aformentioned room/box issues, and if measurement/equalization is not feasible/possible by the user for set-up, then sealed enclosures would probably have a better chance of acheiving the desired effect(s) as stated in this thread, for said user.

-Chris

 

[brian32672]

I still must recommend two subwoofers[one near each main] if such a high frequency[150Hz] is used as the crossover point. Because of the aformentioned room/box issues, and if measurement/equalization is not feasible/possible by the user for set-up, then sealed enclosures would probably have a better chance of acheiving the desired effect(s) as stated in this thread, for said user.

-Chris

Well as stated before. With his other speakers all frequncies are taken care of. His SVS PB4's get crossed at 50hz and see nothing higher. Basically when he watches a movie and a cannon goes off, he will hear the bass from the PB4. But would kinda want to feel it hit him in the chest from 10 feet away. And localize the 50 - 150 to come straight at him from the front. While his mains take up the slack from say oh, 75 - 20,000.

 

[mulester7]

I still must recommend two subwoofers[one near each main] if such a high frequency[150Hz] is used as the crossover point.-Chris

.....that will happen, Chris....one on each side, just inside, of a main....gonna' order ONE Cadence....will report....sure am glad I got a front-firing box by SVS in each corner of my front....win-win discussion....good....now I'm gone.....

 

[brian32672]

Granted as you stated before, something in the lines.
"simply the 'cool' factor of having such a capable[and excessive] driver."

We meaning you and I feel its excessive, but he does have a sound he is trying to localize. Hence the reason this thread was started.
Thanks for all the info....

 

[mulester7]

Well as stated before. With his other speakers all frequncies are taken care of. His SVS PB4's get crossed at 50hz and see nothing higher. Basically when he watches a movie and a cannon goes off, he will hear the bass from the PB4. But would kinda want to feel it hit him in the chest from 10 feet away. And localize the 50 - 150 to come straight at him from the front. While his mains take up the slack from say oh, 75 - 20,000.

....there it is.....(poof!).....

 

[WmAx]

Well as stated before. With his other speakers all frequncies are taken care of. His SVS PB4's get crossed at 50hz and see nothing higher. Basically when he watches a movie and a cannon goes off, he will hear the bass from the PB4. But would kinda want to feel it hit him in the chest from 10 feet away. And localize the 50 - 150 to come straight at him from the front. While his mains take up the slack from say oh, 75 - 20,000.

I think I now understand the situation better. I did not realize that the user wanted to add in a second sub, but in a specialized band. Based on what I now believe is being considered: THIS IS A BAD IDEA AND WILL RESULT IN SUB-OPTIMAL RESULTS.

The best thing that said user could do in this situation is to aquire a second SVS sub to match the 1st one[or get/build 2 new identical subs]. Move each sub within a few feet of each main speaker, and then use a seperate and accurate active crossover to integrate the subwoofers with the mains. Preferably, a DSP crossover with build in equalization should be used, such as the Behringer DCX2496. The DSP device can be used to vary the slope rate and frequency of the crossover between the mains/subs, and to correct room response errors and to apply a transfer function to the low frequency roll off to increase percieved 'tightness' if such is desired.

The above recommendation will remove any significant burden off of the main speakers, and allow for optimal integration with the subwoofers. The 'directional' bass perception in program material is a function of midbass and midrange frequencies combined with the bass frequencies. Optimal integration of the subwoofer/main is required for a seamless effect. But I can't guarantee anything at this point, as I still don't have full information available about this situation -- it is being dispensed slowly to me. What is the specific configuration of the main speakers that mulester is using? How many drivers? What size? Bass alignment/configuration? Driver make/model numbers? Current active crossover slopes/frequencies to subwoofer and mains(if any?)?

-Chris

 

[brian32672]

Ok well the idea of him getting 2 more 3,000.00 PB4 subwoofers is out of the question.

Here may be a little better response to your question.

The fronts are as what they are "up front"
The PB4 would be behind him in a corner.
Now the best place I can see is to image on "sealed" sub that would be under the center channel. Reason being is say a movie has one cannon go off in front of you, he wants to feel that cannon in the localized frequencies with some percussion. Granted the rest of the bass from the PB4 is omni directional. And I believe that 1 12" sealed sub will give him the percussion he is after. Rather the feel of a cannon (or 12 gauge) being shot straight at him. And that he would not need 2 subs in front of him for that feel. Granted 2 would be better, but not neccesary. And a ported box with these kind of cut off frequencies will not give hime that much feel as a controlled sealed box.

 

[brian32672]

I think I now understand the situation better. I did not realize that the user wanted to add in a second sub, but in a specialized band.

I have reread the posts, and I am sorry to say. But this is what I was trying to say the whole time from the first 3 posts.

I did say he has a PB4 sub. And I did say he wanted a sub that would localize between 50 to 150.

Sorry if I did not make myself clear. But I thought it was clear (or at least in my head)

Once again, sorry.

 

[WmAx]

Now the best place I can see is to image on "sealed" sub that would be under the center channel. Reason being is say a movie has one cannon go off in front of you, he wants to feel that cannon in the localized frequencies with some percussion. Granted the rest of the bass from the PB4 is omni directional. And I believe that 1 12" sealed sub will give him the percussion he is after. Rather the feel of a cannon (or 12 gauge) being shot straight at him.

The effect on frequency response, and the interaction/combing of the two subwoofers operating in this manner without correct integration[which I don't see how this will be accomplished by the descriptions so far], will be negative in retrospect to sound quality. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. To even consider such a concept, you need to use a 3 way precision xover system to correctly divide the bands to each system. For example, a central active crossover system that can precisely crossover the PB4 at 40Hz with the sealed unit at 40Hz, then to cross the sealed unit at 150Hz, and cross the mains over at 150Hz. This avoids operating any of the systems into another's band.

And that he would not need 2 subs in front of him for that feel. Granted 2 would be better, but not neccesary. And a ported box with these kind of cut off frequencies will not give hime that much feel as a controlled sealed box.

A box being ported has nothing to do with the 'feel', per say. I don't like these generalizations. That is a matter of the more complex prior factors that I have already mentioned in this thread. What I believe may be interpreted by 'tightness'[if my assumption is correct concerning what you mean by this subjective term], may only result from the use of a sealed enclosure as a coincedence as a circumstance of those explained factors in the particular situation/example that I set up/presented earlier in this thread. I suggested two subs to simplify the matter of proper integration with the mains. This would still work better than using the improperly overlapping system that is being currently proposed.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I have reread the posts, and I am sorry to say. But this is what I was trying to say the whole time from the first 3 posts.

I did say he has a PB4 sub. And I did say he wanted a sub that would localize between 50 to 150.

Sorry if I did not make myself clear. But I thought it was clear (or at least in my head)

Once again, sorry.

The part that was not clear was that 3 seperate systems would be operating into conflicting bandwidths/overlaps. Please refer to my last post[no. 40].

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I think mule has two small two way floorstanders. My guess, a 1" tweeter and a 6.5" woofer. If I remember correctly, they are sitting on top of his dual SVS B12 Plus 4's driven by two Crown K1 pro amps. These two subs are 26" high x 32" wide x 25" deep and about 190 pounds each. Imagine, 8 - 12" woofers in one room. http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_b12_plus_4.htm

 

[WmAx]

I think mule has two small two way floorstanders. My guess, a 1" tweeter and a 6.5" woofer. If I remember correctly, they are sitting on top of his dual SVS B12 Plus 4's driven by two Crown K1 pro amps. These two subs are 26" high x 32" wide x 25" deep and about 190 pounds each. Imagine, 8 - 12" woofers in one room. http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_b12_plus_4.htm

See, now, this gets more confusing as time goes on....

If what you say is correct, then the only thing preventing mulester from having the sound he wants is a proper active crossover/equalizer to route the proper frequencies to the mains and subs[for a 6.5" two way in close proximity to the stereo subs, about a 85Hz-100Hz 4th order L-R would probably be ideal]. If, however, he only has one of the plus 4 subs(instead of a stereo pair, and I think this is the case after what Brian has said), then I guess the only reasonable option is to use the SVS sub <45 Hz or so, and use a pro-level DSP crossover to route 45-110Hz to a stereo pair of subs placed near the mains, and >110 Hz to the mains. I specify a DSP crossover, because frankly, that's the only thing that is going to have the flexibility/power to route this unusual combination of LF devices without resorting to a custom designed active circuit.

If Mulester would just explain/confirm the exact room setup/positioning and current equipment and settings on said equipment being used...

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

If Mulester would just explain/confirm the exact room setup/positioning and current equipment and settings on said equipment being used.-Chris

.....let me go upstairs and make some coffee, Chris, and then I'll do just that.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Audiophiles: take no offense in what I may proclaim --- I suspect that I am hearing impaired --- for I can't even discern the difference in sound between copper and silver speaker wire.

Chris, just noticed your signature. LOL. Classic.

I'm 99.9% certain Mule has 2 of those crates they call subs, but I don't know for sure if he's running one or two Crown K1 amps. His sheetrock in that room must be falling apart.