Sanity check: Bad Sub ? (REW Sweep results)

[shadyJ]

The measured response is largely the room. The sub probably measures OK. The dip in the response at is probably the distance difference from the port to the woofer, or maybe the port is over-represented. If you want to be sure, do a near-field measurement of the port (like 1 or 2 inches) and then a near-field of the woofer. That should at least tell you if one of them is misbehaving.

 

[lovinthehd]

The measured response is largely the room. The sub probably measures OK. The dip in the response at is probably the distance difference from the port to the woofer, or maybe the port is over-represented. If you want to be sure, do a near-field measurement of the port (like 1 or 2 inches) and then a near-field of the woofer. That should at least tell you if one of them is misbehaving.

Did you measure that sub? Gotta link?

 

[Linwood]

So you moved the better speakers to the front of the cabinet to avoid reflections?

The new speakers' fronts are slightly in front of the cabinet, and at the outer edge of the wall. They are 10.5" off the back wall, KEF says something like 9" minimum, and recommended I stuff the port with their provided paper muffle (which I did). The new sub is about the same width as the old so should fit i the same spot, but unlike the old which is downfacing will face outward, so won't be in a cave of sorts from the furniture.

The center is right at the front edge of the glass top.

I may try putting the sub outside the towers, which would look better, but the seating in the area is at or somewhat outside where they towers are now, so that would make the sound at the outside seats worse, I think, if they are put in closer. As it is, they are a bit of a road hazard of someone going around those corners.

In this shot the console is probably 4" further forward than I hope to get it, I've got some balled up sub cable (it's like 30' and really heavy) that I need to fix by buying a new coax cable, which this is a good reminder of, thanks.

Advice welcomed.

 

[everettT]

The new speakers' fronts are slightly in front of the cabinet, and at the outer edge of the wall. They are 10.5" off the back wall, KEF says something like 9" minimum, and recommended I stuff the port with their provided paper muffle (which I did). The new sub is about the same width as the old so should fit i the same spot, but unlike the old which is downfacing will face outward, so won't be in a cave of sorts from the furniture.

The center is right at the front edge of the glass top.

I may try putting the sub outside the towers, which would look better, but the seating in the area is at or somewhat outside where they towers are now, so that would make the sound at the outside seats worse, I think, if they are put in closer. As it is, they are a bit of a road hazard of someone going around those corners.

In this shot the console is probably 4" further forward than I hope to get it, I've got some balled up sub cable (it's like 30' and really heavy) that I need to fix by buying a new coax cable, which this is a good reminder of, thanks.

Advice welcomed.

View attachment 76742

I think you need to ditch the remote sub idea with the all in one unit and when the new sub arrives and after best placement is determined get a separate RF unit if necessary. Low frequencies and rooms are the nightmare that ruins good sound and I wholeheartedly commend you for the effort you have made, not many would have dove head first into this hobby at the beginning of their journey.

 

[Linwood]

...not many would have dove head first into this hobby at the beginning of their journey.

Bad analogy, it's diving in credit card first.

 

[everettT]

Bad analogy, it's diving in credit card first.

When I get the itch for more speakers the wife pulls out shotgun, lol. I've dropped some serious coin over the years relative to what my budget should have been and have never had buyers remorse yet. I've held onto speakers that worked for my ears probably too long after purchasing new.

The one thing I have learned over the years is that there a lot of electronics out there that are overpriced and provide no audible benefit just because of their name. Enjoy your journey and hope you enjoy the new subwoofer!

 

[Linwood]

So for those waiting with bated breath, this is the SVS in the same spot, everything defaulted, pure direct , no attempt at tuning anything.

The very low was clearly inability of the old speaker (orange) to reach low. The dips beyond that would appear to be the room?

I'll spend some time working with it, but the similarity makes me think the old one was "not that bad" (other than below 30hz), and should I actually just keep it and use both? (The 3800 can drive four independently with separate eq for each, as I understand it).

 

[lovinthehd]

So for those waiting with bated breath, this is the SVS in the same spot, everything defaulted, pure direct , no attempt at tuning anything.

The very low was clearly inability of the old speaker (orange) to reach low. The dips beyond that would appear to be the room?

I'll spend some time working with it, but the similarity makes me think the old one was "not that bad" (other than below 30hz), and should I actually just keep it and use both? (The 3800 can drive four independently with separate eq for each, as I understand it).

View attachment 76749

Pure direct with 2ch generally doesn't use the sub, can you elaborate on the setup?

Your avr can set level/delay for up to four subs, but they are eq'd simultaneously if using Audyssey.

Generally I'd at least want the subs to be fairly similar in performance, but prefer identical.

 

[Linwood]

Pure direct with 2ch generally doesn't use the sub, can you elaborate on the setup?

Your avr can set level/delay for up to four subs, but they are eq'd simultaneously if using Audyssey.

Generally I'd at least want the subs to be fairly similar in performance, but prefer identical.

The graph was from REW, which can send directly to the sub.

Audyssey may set them together but there's a manual EQ to balance them, as well as separate distances. (Now that it has that does not mean I know what to do with it).

I wasn't planning to buy two new subs. But the question I guess is whether I should discard the old Klipsch or keep it.

It does make the room look more symmetric; or maybe emphasizes their difference (but the baby has a blue light to make up, right?)

Honestly I have no idea what to do with the one sub to fine tune it, so I may just be silly thinking of having two. but I HAVE two, so will play around a bit.

I'm still lost in watching some of the tuning videos, to measure with REW to fine tune crossover (that makes sense) and distance (they seem to change that, which I assume changes delay, to fill gaps which is confusing).

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the clarification; I take it you didn't run Audyssey? Or used it just to set levels/delays?

If you use the Denon's manual graphic eq, you lose the Audyssey eq; they don''t work simultaneously. Distance is the delay adjustment. The benefits of dual subs could well be better even with somewhat different subs. Experiment.

ps generally graphic eq is the least desirable way to do eq. PEQ would be better (but doesn't come with the Denon), and for now I'd let Audyssey do its thing and use it's setup, maybe even think about using Dirac. Limitation in positioning will be a factor, too.

 

[Linwood]

Thanks for the clarification. If you use the Denon's manual graphic eq, you lose the Audyssey; they don''t work simultaneously.

But there's a manual speaker level adjustment that I thought was on top of Audyssey. This one. You can't do an frequency specific change, but I could balance the relative power of the two subs, and this doesn't turn off Audyssey's curves, right? Below I've balanced them to the ear with whatever noise it plays (i.e. not sure at what frequency that concentrates).

Thanks for the clarification; I take it you didn't run Audyssey? Or used it just to set levels/delays?

If you use the Denon's manual graphic eq, you lose the Audyssey eq; they don''t work simultaneously. Distance is the delay adjustment. The benefits of dual subs could well be better even with somewhat different subs. Experiment.

I did run Audyssey but with the old sub. I will run it again when I finish experimenting.

I also ran A1 EVO Accoustica and loaded that into the other speaker preset. It did not sound better, it may have been worse. I put in the Harmon house curve with it, but I think it needs a bit more on the medium-high frequencies for my ear.

I'm watching the sales, thinking of either Dirac Live or Multeq-x, not because I know what to do with either, but I like toys with lots of knobs to screw up adjust with care. There doesn't seem to be much consensus which is a better choice.

Delays... I was watching a youtube last night about tuning subs (or more specifically one sub) and the guy was taking curves, seeing those big dips, then changing crossover and distance to smooth out the dips. I didn't get why delay would change it -- but I think in retrospect he must have also been sending the same signal to the mains, otherwise the crossover and distance would not seem to have an effect on the curve shape. But the delay would cause or prevent resonance and interference I guess.

Lots to learn.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's just a level adjustment, and you can alter both level and delay (distance) on top of Audyssey. Using an Audyssey setup with different speakers/subs/room/placement are going to require you to re-run it. I'd simply start with Audyssey, and recommend the $20 MultEQ Editor App for a bit more control/flexibility of eq you don't get in the avr alone before spending bigger bucks on MultEQ-X or Dirac.