Salon 2, 8XXD, or SS-AR-1?

[Pyrrho]

The Absolute Sound reviewer said something like listening to that Sony made him feel like he was listening to that orchestra in the concert hall where the recording was made, something like that anyway, my very short term memory is fading fast..

I believe Sony does have the resource to do things right if they are willing to allocate the needed resource for whatever reasons.

Yes, Sony does have the resources to make great speakers if they want to. They have made some good ones in the past. I have little doubt that these new ones from Sony sound very good. Probably no where near $27,000 worth of good, but I would guess that they do sound better than the majority of the speakers owned by members of this site. But for their price, they certainly ought to sound better than most of the speakers owned by members of this site.

A lot of people are prejudiced about brands (and about countries of manufacture), often because the brand makes some inexpensive equipment. Making some cheap stuff does not mean that they are incapable of making good stuff. The fallacy involved is called "guilt by association." The reverse mistake (involving the same bad reasoning) is one major reason why companies like to make "statement pieces" or something impressive to get people to imagine that their lesser equipment is somehow special. But the fact that a company makes one great thing means nothing for whether their other things are worth owning or not.

It should be obvious that Sony can make something great if they want to do so. They are a large company with tremendous resources at their disposal, so a failure to be able to imagine them making something great is simply a failure of imagination on the person who supposes that everything Sony makes must be bad.

 

[GranteedEV]

Wouldn't you group bipole, dipole, and omnipole speakers together vs. monopole?

I would describe em like this:

Wide Directivity Monopole = polar response very smooth. need to use acoustically small drivers and smart crossovers. This is close to omni behaviour but limited by the baffle size. Omni radiates sound equally in all directions - power response is decided by frequency response. Really just a very very very wide directivity monopole like the pluto. Unlike monopoles there should be no bump in power response near 400hz though it does occur eventually. For the pluto that bump is up near 3000hz instead. the pluto tweeter does start to beam eventually.

Random Directivity Monopole - Self explanitory. Seen prominently when you mate flush mount naked ribbon tweeters to beaming 8 inch woofers at 3khz ;P - AKA "boxy box speaker sound"

Narrowing Directivity Monopole. baffle step related power response bump. A beaming woofer mated to a constant directivity horn. polar response narrows towards the crossover point than stays constantly narrow with no flares. of course it can still be wider directivity if the woofer used is small enough... id say the KEF and Revels you like fit this, and of course JBL horns and geddes horns are a lot narrower because the big woofers beam earlier.

Bipole = Just a monopole with rear radiation adding soundstage depth, no baffle step related power response bump. Can be any of the above kind of monopoles. Rear radiation --IS-- a coloration but a WIDELY prefered one in blind sound quality experiments.

"true omni?" - a bipole using the above kind of omni as a basis... combined.. ishs

I would lump the above all together really. Looking at the drivers, the sony speaker is a some "random directivity monopole" though nothing as bad as the above example.

Dipoles however use the cancelations caused by the out of phase to create a unique polar pattern right down to bass frequencies. there is no baffle step power response bump. they are different in the bass unlike all of the above which are omni in the bass.

And there's cardioids too. I'd group em with dipoles as "1st ordergradients". Not sure of any cardioid hifi speakers - the open back midrange in the statements / Salk Soundscape may approximate cardioid response. i do know some pro audio brands like Meyer offer huge cardioid arrays.

And there's dipoles mated to monopole horns with the rear wave attenuated with broadband absorption. i would prolly call these "monopoles with better bass". if you dont Ttenuate the rear wave, then i would call it a random directivity open baffle speaker.

 

[Docks]

Does that Sony use the Scanspeak revelator as a mid? if so... nice!! The revelator is a very well accepted driver used in lots of hifi DIY speakers. You can also find measurements on zaph audio. (Fantastic Driver, beats Seas in all cases, but expensive).

I still dont buy the bipolar/dipolar thing. The image seems TOO big, perhaps its decent for home theatre, but not for music IMO. The orion is undergoing too many revisions for anyone to have any sort of trust in it. (They could have used better drivers too.) That said the active xover is nice!

Paradigm uses the ADP (dipolar) as surrounds for their speakers, they are a good sounding speaker but also a bit TOO big sounding IMO. Lots of people prefer to use the S2's over them because they are not dipolar and provide a razor sharp image.

The B&W 800 series are very well made, and are not metal like the revels. They also present a better waterfall plot, step response and cabinet. That said the frequency response is "voiced" and sounds very dry and boring (and not accurate to me).

The Revel Salon 2 has a better/more extended response, particularly in the lower freq. It still has a very nice cabinet, but not as good as the original Salons or the B&W. The step response is not as good as the B&W but I would still take these over the B&W.

All this said, Running these speakers full range has too much THD in the lower freq anyways. I would STILL cross these over with a sub around 60hz to keep THD down around .5%. Dont beleve me? Check here. http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/revel_ultima_salon2/

Just because all these speakers can run full range doesnt mean they will be clear at this freq, besides the cabinet resonance at this freq is too crazy especially at these levels.

The Paradigm Sub2 can produce disturbingly low THD at 20hz at high db but is just too pricey at around 8 grand. The current sub i've been investigating is the SVS PB ultra 13.

Its just too difficult to produce a clean low frequency without a sub.

All this said the B&W and Revel are fantastic "full range" speakers, also look at the Vandersteen 5A.

If you want the most accurate response possible almost to a flaw seriously look at the Paradigm S8. I dare you, google it.
For any SANE amount of cash, Get a older B&W 8xx series, Revel F52, S8 and a nice sub. Promise you wont be jealous of those overpriced floor standers. Integration is key though!

I hope my comments provided some new doors for you people. I always do see the same Revel/B&W debates all over here.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I always do see the same Revel/B&W debates all over here.

What?

You mean PENG thinks the Revels suck, and I think the B&W suck?

And DenPureSound thinks Infinity speakers sound like crap?

Oh, yeah, we like a little trash talk.

Will somebody please explain to me why the Infinity P360 has a better horizontal and vertical off-axis frequency response than the B&W 802D!!!!!

Please explain the heck out of it for me, please! Put some sense back into this world!

I can't wait for the actual measurements of the Sony speaker.

 

[GranteedEV]

Does that Sony use the Scanspeak revelator as a mid? if so... nice!! The revelator is a very well accepted driver used in lots of hifi DIY speakers. You can also find measurements on zaph audio. (Fantastic Driver, beats Seas in all cases, but expensive).

The revelator is not as good an OEM midrange as some TAD, ATC, Accuton, Wavecor, PHL, Jantzen, BG, Acoustic Elegance or Seas Excel midrange drivers and certainly does not beat it in all cases. i would say that the za14w08 is also a comparable driver at a much lower cost albeit without the same power handling/xmax. the upcoming Exodus Anarchy EX-5.25 will be world class. The revelator may be easier to work with than a metal cone driver but not better in its passband as far as i can tell.

I still dont buy the bipolar/dipolar thing. The image seems TOO big, perhaps its decent for home theatre, but not for music IMO. The orion is undergoing too many revisions for anyone to have any sort of trust in it. (They could have used better drivers too.) That said the active xover is nice!

You are free to your opinion. with that said, ask acu def tech guy if the image on his orions is notably larger than the image on the KEFs and Revels he loves.

And the seas W22 / millenium are world class drivers with shorting rings, very low distortion motor structure, and rigid magnesium cones. It doesn't get too much better than that. I do think the orion like any speaker has its flaws but that ain't one of em.

Paradigm uses the ADP (dipolar) as surrounds for their speakers, they are a good sounding speaker but also a bit TOO big sounding IMO. Lots of people prefer to use the S2's over them because they are not dipolar and provide a razor sharp image.

THX Dipole/Bipole surrounds are truly neither. A dipole surround puts you inside the dipole null so all you hear is the room reflections... that is not very realistic. Bipole surrounds have only 45 degree angle or so between the tweeters/woofers so you get a lot of horizontal comb filtering. neither is a correct approach. A --true-- cardioid surround speaker is supposedly ideal for HT according to someone, i believe Toole.

The orion and other true dipole speakers are different. the rear wave adds soundstage depth, the forward wave is very accurate, and the vertical/horizontal off axis waves are what is attenuated, letting you hear a sharp image (though not unnaturally sharp). You can only get this type of sharp image with room treatments but that will reduce spaciousness because it also reduces later reflections.

The Paradigm Sub2 can produce disturbingly low THD at 20hz at high db but is just too pricey at around 8 grand. The current sub i've been investigating is the SVS PB ultra 13.

Consider four sealed TC Sounds LMS 5400s. Funkywaves or Salk could make you them.

If you want the most accurate response possible almost to a flaw seriously look at the Paradigm S8. I dare you, google it.

I dunno bout that. i havent heard the s8s but the paradigms ive heard are 'mehh'.

For any SANE amount of cash, Get a older B&W 8xx series, Revel F52, S8 and a nice sub.

The revel F52 hell yea. but for the others I would rather get Salk HT2-TL, Seaton Catalyst, Geddes Abbey, Pioneer S1-EX or that really cool looking spendor speaker thank ya very much.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is the image on my Orions notably larger than the image on the KEFs and Revels?

The answer is NO!

I think the image/soundstage on all three are extremely similar to one another.

It's been said over and over again (because it is true) that the most important thing is that your speakers sound great to you.

I've listened to the Paradigm Studio 100. A pharmacist friend of mine has also listened to some S8, and was not impressed. InTheIndustry has listened to the Paradigm S8 + dual subwoofers in showroom. GranteedEV has listened to some other Paradigms. I think Whitey80 also listened to the Paradigm S8 and wasn't spiritually moved either. Apparently some of us are just not fans of Paradigm. That doesn't mean Paradigm won't sound great to PENG or DOCKS or other folks.

My speakers need to have fantastic clarity and detail, and just sound energetic, enthusiastic, and alive.

When I was listening to the B&W 800D, 802D, 803D, and Studio 100, I thought I was going to have to give them an amp of Epinephrine and bring out a defibrillator or something.

But that's just me. When PENG listens to the Revels and Orions, he may feel like putting on earplugs or something.

And BTW, I don't think B&W 800s sound like KEF Reference speakers at all.

 

[GranteedEV]

Is the image on my Orions notably larger than the image on the KEFs and Revels?

The answer is NO!.

Now rotate them by 90 degrees listen to them... ;P

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now rotate them by 90 degrees listen to them... ;P

...Okay.......Now they sound like the B&Ws & Paradigms...after they have been defibrillated.

 

[GranteedEV]

Orions - Revels and B&W for half thr price of one

 

[Docks]

The revelator is not as good an OEM midrange as some TAD, ATC, Accuton, Wavecor, PHL, Jantzen, BG, Acoustic Elegance or Seas Excel midrange drivers and certainly does not beat it in all cases. i would say that the za14w08 is also a comparable driver at a much lower cost albeit without the same power handling/xmax. the upcoming Exodus Anarchy EX-5.25 will be world class. The revelator may be easier to work with than a metal cone driver but not better in its passband as far as i can tell.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
ScanSpeak Revelator and Illuminator Measured, where can you find a cleaner driver?

You are free to your opinion. with that said, ask acu def tech guy if the image on his orions is notably larger than the image on the KEFs and Revels he loves.

And the seas W22 / millenium are world class drivers with shorting rings, very low distortion motor structure, and rigid magnesium cones. It doesn't get too much better than that. I do think the orion like any speaker has its flaws but that ain't one of em.

You are also free to your own opinion, there is too much focus on a few very specific pairs of speakers here, we need to open that up.

THX Dipole/Bipole surrounds are truly neither. A dipole surround puts you inside the dipole null so all you hear is the room reflections... that is not very realistic. Bipole surrounds have only 45 degree angle or so between the tweeters/woofers so you get a lot of horizontal comb filtering. neither is a correct approach. A --true-- cardioid surround speaker is supposedly ideal for HT according to someone, i believe Toole.

The orion and other true dipole speakers are different. the rear wave adds soundstage depth, the forward wave is very accurate, and the vertical/horizontal off axis waves are what is attenuated, letting you hear a sharp image (though not unnaturally sharp). You can only get this type of sharp image with room treatments but that will reduce spaciousness because it also reduces later reflections.

I don't buy it, you hear too much room and not enough speaker regardless. It all sounds fake to me, like its trying too hard.

Consider four sealed TC Sounds LMS 5400s. Funkywaves or Salk could make you them.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8144-subwoofer-tests-round-5-6th-october-2007-test-summary-read-me.html
How did my budget go from 2 grand to 8 grand for 4 of these LMS 5400s from Funkywaves?
I did already look at this, they offer a bit less THD but very poor response compared to the SVS PB13 ultra while offering poor flexibility.

I dunno bout that. i havent heard the s8s but the paradigms ive heard are 'mehh'.

That's like me saying I've listened to the B&W 683s thought they sucked and assumed the 800 series sucked. They are in a different league, the 600 series sounded average at best, poor for the price. (My opinion of course) Although the 800's response is not my cup of tea, they do have indications of a well made speaker. They have a very loyal following for a reason, I respect that.

The revel F52 hell yea. but for the others I would rather get Salk HT2-TL, Seaton Catalyst, Geddes Abbey, Pioneer S1-EX or that really cool looking spendor speaker thank ya very much.

The S8 is more accurate than all of these.

Anyways - I'm not here to argue, I'm just saying not to take peoples words here as the golden truth. Do the homework kiddies. Happy Listening!

Great Album
BT - This Binary Universe - Amazing sound stage, the album felt like a journey. I highly suggest it!

 

[Docks]

Will somebody please explain to me why the Infinity P360 has a better horizontal and vertical off-axis frequency response than the B&W 802D!!!!!

B&W voices their speakers for a specific target audience.
Revel uses state of the art measuring chambers (like paradigm btw) to ensure a flat response.

Speakers with a flat response can reveal some very poor recordings.
I'm sure the resolution on the diamond tweeter is fantastic but with the highs already rolled off its even more dramatic as you go off axis. That said the step response of its drivers is better than the Salon2's.

All that said, I'd take the Salon2 still. Unless you wanted to do some sort of EQ with a DEQ2496 or better yet room treatment. (Don't forget a sub)

 

[PENG]

What?

You mean PENG thinks the Revels suck, and I think the B&W suck?

I think that you think the B&W 800 diamond series suck but I do not think the Revels suck.

And DenPureSound thinks Infinity speakers sound like crap?

He didn't tell me that but I would not hesitate to tell him the P362 sounds much better than his Klipsch as long as he stays away from classical music such as concertos and symphonies.

Will somebody please explain to me why the Infinity P360 has a better horizontal and vertical off-axis frequency response than the B&W 802D!!!!!

I don't listen to 2 channel music in pure direct off axis. I think the 802D has much lower distortion. I don't remember the fellows name but it was not Dr. Olive who knocked the 802D. It was the fellow who kept parroting a few things orignally cited by Dr. Olive, that fellow somehow disappeared from this forum for whatever reasons.

I can't wait for the actual measurements of the Sony speaker.

I remember seeing the frequency response and water fall graphs but not sure if they were in the Absolute Sound or Stereophile reviews.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that you think the B&W 800 diamond series suck but I do not think the Revels suck.

Oh, fine. You're making me look mean.
I think the 800s would greatly benefit from a great subwoofer.

He didn't tell me that but I would not hesitate to tell him the P362 sounds much better than his Klipsch as long as he stays away from classical music such as concertos and symphonies.

He actually said "his" Infinity sound like garbage for music, but OK for movies. I took the liberty to extrapolate.

I don't listen to 2 channel music in pure direct off axis. I think the 802D has much lower distortion. I don't remember the fellows name but it was not Dr. Olive who knocked the 802D. It was the fellow who kept parroting a few things originally cited by Dr. Olive, that fellow somehow disappeared from this forum for whatever reasons.

You mean AJinFL? I think he is over at AVS forum now. He built the Orions, but with slight mods I think. Yeah, AJ was the first person who pointed out to me the off-axis response of the 802D. It's just that for a $16K speaker with a great cabinet, I expected it to best a measly P360 in 100% of the measurements. It's just disappointing that the 800D did not.

I remember seeing the frequency response and water fall graphs but not sure if they were in the Absolute Sound or Stereophile reviews.

I have never seen any kind of measurements on The Absolute Sound. Do they even measure anything? It must be Stereophile then.

So did the measurements strike you as perfect?

 

[Warpdrv]

He built the Orions, but with slight mods I think. Yeah, AJ was the first person who pointed out to me the off-axis response of the 802D. It's just that for a $16K speaker with a great cabinet, I expected it to best a measly P360 in 100% of the measurements. It's just disappointing that the 800D did not.

Don't sit off axis and they will be fine, spend the money....

 

[DenPureSound]

My Infinity's sound like junk to me, but remember they are 20 yrs. old, and I have no idea what Infinity did over the last 20yrs.

They are RS-625 Front Towers, RS-325 Surrounds, and RS-Video CC.

If I had my way, they would be at the next Garage Sale!! Pure garbage in my opinion - as they are dull, blah and double blah - no spunk, like they are -10db across the spectrum, flat and dead w/ the Denon AVR-3311CI.

And why wasn't the Klipsch Palladium P-39F included in this league at $10K MSRP each??

Peng, do you really think that the P363BK's at MSRP = $ 329 sound better than the Klipsch RF-82II's at MSRP = $ 599?

And I do not listen to Concertos and/or Symphony stuff, but on very rare occasions.

Peng Quote:
And DenPureSound thinks Infinity speakers sound like crap?
He didn't tell me that but I would not hesitate to tell him the P362 sounds much better than his Klipsch as long as he stays away from classical music such as concertos and symphonies.

 

[PENG]

Peng, do you really think that the P363BK's at MSRP = $ 329 sound better than the Klipsch RF-82II's at MSRP = $ 599?

And I do not listen to Concertos and/or Symphony stuff, but on very rare occasions.

Yes I do, for non classical stuff anyway. Klipsch does have their followers though, I am just not one of them. I also think the big RF-82 may have better bass response but overall I definitely prefer the cheaper P362.

 

[PENG]

Oh, fine. You're making me look mean.

No, not mean, but bias.

He actually said "his" Infinity sound like garbage for music, but OK for movies. I took the liberty to extrapolate.

Okay now I know he meant those 20 years old ones, not the P36X.

You mean AJinFL? I think he is over at AVS forum now. He built the Orions, but with slight mods I think. Yeah, AJ was the first person who pointed out to me the off-axis response of the 802D. It's just that for a $16K speaker with a great cabinet, I expected it to best a measly P360 in 100% of the measurements. It's just disappointing that the 800D did not.

Again, I never did listen to those big B&W off axis so I cannot comment on that, but I was impressed with how nice they sounded on axis.

I have never seen any kind of measurements on The Absolute Sound. Do they even measure anything? It must be Stereophile then.

So did the measurements strike you as perfect?

I think you are right. I remember the frequency response curve was impressively flat but did not pay attention to anything else as I really wasn't interested in a pair of USD 27,000 Sony speakers. Now that you asked, I may pay Chapter another visit and take another read of that review. I may even buy it if there are other interesting articles in it.

 

[Seth=L]

Japanese multinational companies like Sony and Panasonic have always had overwhelming amounts of money to throw at R&D to impress at trade shows. Oddly this seems to have little real impact on the consumer market as availability is slim to a point that you can't find some of these products unless you are well beyond the means of being able to afford them in the first place.

Sony has made speakers and amplifiers of such extraordinary and unparalled levels of performance and style it is mind numbing how none of it (absolutely none of it) trickles down to their mass market consumer audio equipment. I'm talking about amplifiers that run neck and neck with top of the line Halcro, Mark Levinson, Krell, Goldmund, and Classe. No holds barred equipment. They produce them like they're collector's pieces for billionares.

So with all that in mind, what is the availability on something like the SS-AR-1? The last superlatively high end speakers I recall getting big publicity were the SS-M9ED back in the 90's, which was another contender for B&W's top of the line 800 series in it's day. The SS-M9ED is still virtually unoptanium. Fortunately they incidentally made speakers to complement the SS-M9ED with the SS-M7 and SS-M3. The SS-M9ED was actually superceded by the SS-M9, which is the SS-M9ED sans the super tweeter (the super tweeter was added when SACD came out so Sony could compliment their upper frequency bandwidth capabilities at trade shows, not that anyone can hear that high anyway).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

B&W voices their speakers for a specific target audience.

Yeah, for PENG.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't sit off axis and they will be fine, spend the money....

I always sat right in the middle when I auditioned the B&Ws. Every time.

I only noticed the off-axis responses AFTERWARDS when AJinFL pointed them out.