Salon 2, 8XXD, or SS-AR-1?

[GranteedEV]

It doesnt matter if you sit off axis or on unless you're in a gymnasium sized or acoustically dead (Boring / Lifeless / Suffocating / Audiophile / Padded) room. In real rooms we hear that off axis response ;P

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...They are RS-625 Front Towers, RS-325 Surrounds, and RS-Video CC....Pure garbage in my opinion - as they are dull, blah and double blah - no spunk, like they are -10db across the spectrum, flat and dead...

They have a flat line. They need to be defibrillated. Charge......Clear.......Shock.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It doesnt matter if you sit off axis or on unless you're in a gymnasium sized or acoustically dead (Boring / Lifeless / Suffocating / Audiophile / Padded) room. In real rooms we hear that off axis response ;P

When I auditioned the B&W 800D the SECOND time (AJinFL said I'm insane for not believing it the FIRST time), the room was completely decked out with room treatments. Heck they had treatments for the room treatments.

But I still sat squared in the middle.

Unfortunately, the amp was only like 200WPC, which I was told is not nearly enough.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, for PENG.

And those who enjoy "live" like music/sound...

 

[PENG]

It doesnt matter if you sit off axis or on unless you're in a gymnasium sized or acoustically dead (Boring / Lifeless / Suffocating / Audiophile / Padded) room. In real rooms we hear that off axis response ;P

I kind of agree, and I never thought much of what AJiFLA (sorry if I remember his name wrong) who kept talking about the off axis measurement thina and blablabla, there are too many other factors to worry about if you are going to worry about all of them. Him and WmAx can fight it out if they wish but somehow one disappeared and then the other, but I didn't really care. I do have a lot of respect for the latter though

 

[MinusTheBear]

I kind of agree, and I never thought much of what AJiFLA (sorry if I remember his name wrong) who kept talking about the off axis measurement thina and blablabla, there are too many other factors to worry about if you are going to worry about all of them. Him and WmAx can fight it out if they wish but somehow one disappeared and then the other, but I didn't really care. I do have a lot of respect for the latter though

They both got banned however the latter is an alleged welcher.

 

[PENG]

Back to my real world, choices are limited to something like the B&W 803S PSB Synchrony 1 (too warm sounding), Digm S6, Focal Electra 1038, KEF 203/2 or 205/2 (no bass?), Dynaudio (not too many dealers). I may check into DIY but spare time is hard to come by. Any other neutral, live like sounding speakers that are affordable and preferably available from dealers north of the border?

 

[GranteedEV]

See what you can audition out of the list I made earlier! Spendor A6/A9/ST and Pioneer EX should have some dealers near you. Salk and Geddes are in Michigan if you ever wanna make a trip out of it, or you can give the creepy owner audition thing a shot. Also check out JBL Professional LSR 6332s from the local pro audio shop

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I kind of agree, and I never thought much of what AJiFLA (sorry if I remember his name wrong) who kept talking about the off axis measurement thina and blablabla, there are too many other factors to worry about if you are going to worry about all of them. Him and WmAx can fight it out if they wish but somehow one disappeared and then the other, but I didn't really care. I do have a lot of respect for the latter though

They both got banned however the latter (WmAx) is an alleged welcher.

I can't believe you would respect a welcher (scammer, swindler), PENG!

I don't care how knowledgable someone is; if he is a scammer/swindler, he gets no respect from me.

I know the reason you liked him was because he was the 802Defender!

Now you don't have any 802Defenders anymore. Oh, no, so sad.

So GranteedEV and I can make fun of B&W all we want. Ha, ha, ha.

I respect AJinFL because he seems extremely knowledgable in audio and he doesn't mind pointing things out to me.

If AJinFL worries about something, I'd want to know too.

The one thing about B&W is that even the great 802Defender WmAx always follow his defense with a condition - like they are "too flat" and need EQ'ing.

I prefer speakers that come either already EQ'ed to sound great or already sound great without EQ.

I have never heard the Focal speakers, though. I should have auditioned them at Ultimate Electronics when they were on clearance.

I have not heard Dynaudio speakers either.

But here is the Dynaudio C1:

However, Soundstage and Stereophile reviews both said the KEF 201/2s sounded better than the more expensive Dynaudio C1. I extrapolate that to mean the bigger KEF References also sound better than the bigger Dynaudios.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

KEF 203/2 or 205/2 (no bass)

I can confirm that even the KEF 201/2 bookshelf has A LOT of bass for it's size. I mean this little thing goes down to 50Hz, especially in-room response.

When I first heard the KEF 201/2, I couldn't believe the amount of bass I was hearing from those things.

Of course, bookshelf speakers are meant to be used with subwoofers.

But if the 201/2 has that much bass in-room, I would say the bigger KEFs have a lot more bass than what their anechoic measurement says, especially in-room bass.

The KEF 203/2 has a bass extension of 40Hz (-6dB).

The 205/2 has a bass extension of 35Hz (-6dB).

The KEF 203/2 is $10K/pr retail, but you might be able to obtain for ~ $5K new.

The KEF 205/2 is $14K/pr retail, but you might get for ~ $7K new.

But I would rather get a pair of 201/2 for $3K/pr new and get dual Rythmik subs for $2K.

 

[GranteedEV]

I have never heard the Focal speakers, though. I should have auditioned them at Ultimate Electronics when they were on clearance.

I would get Focal Pro Active Monitors. Dunno how they measure but unlike the Polks, Paradigms, and B&Ws i have heard, I could live with them at least.

I have not heard Dynaudio speakers either.

know what's ridiculous? Volkswagon cars use sweet dynaudio sound systems. Volkswagon owns Audi. The Passat is essentially a rebadged A4. Audis only use Bose . So a Passat can have better sound than an A4 or TT. Not fair because i have been car shopping for my car oblivious sister and she would rather get an audi than a volkswagon. sigh.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

know what's ridiculous? Volkswagon cars use sweet dynaudio sound systems. Volkswagon owns Audi. The Passat is essentially a rebadged A4. Audis only use Bose . So a Passat can have better sound than an A4 or TT. Not fair because i have been car shopping for my car oblivious sister and she would rather get an audi than a volkswagon. sigh.

If you can't talk your sister into getting the Volkswagen, she can buy an A4, but without the sound system, and then go to a Volkswagen dealer for the audio system made for a Passat (assuming you/she like it better than comparably priced aftermarket stereo gear).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

know what's ridiculous? Volkswagon cars use sweet dynaudio sound systems. Volkswagon owns Audi. The Passat is essentially a rebadged A4. Audis only use Bose . So a Passat can have better sound than an A4 or TT. Not fair because i have been car shopping for my car oblivious sister and she would rather get an audi than a volkswagon. sigh.

Toyota use JBL. Lexus use Mark Levinson. This is a company that know what they are doing.

Volkswagon don't know what they are doing.

 

[PENG]

I can't believe you would respect a welcher

I don't neither.

I don't care how knowledgable someone is; if he is a scammer/swindler, he gets no respect from me.

Same here.

I know the reason you liked him was because he was the 802Defender!

I only respect his knowledge in speakers, all the other stuff I had no idea and really don't want to know now.

Now you don't have any 802Defenders anymore. Oh, no, so sad.

Not so fast, I thought TLSG may be one who has a little respect for B&W, albeit a very weak one. I must say I am going by distant memory, hopefully he would correct me without giving me a blast.

I respect AJinFL because he seems extremely knowledgable in audio and he doesn't mind pointing things out to me.

I did too, but again only for his knowledge in speakers. I get easily turned off by someone who would fixate on one single thing and then seemingly ignore other factors, especially those who could have been just parroting what others said, with no originality of his own or academic standings. Just to be clear I am not saying this applies to any particular individual.

The one thing about B&W is that even the great 802Defender WmAx always follow his defense with a condition - like they are "too flat" and need EQ'ing.

I don't know how flat it's freq response graph is but according to the published specs it has very low distortions. You don't see too many speakers include distortion figures in their specs. I assume it is because loudspeakers typically have much higher THD etc. than amps and source players. To me I pay much more attention to distortion, on axis freq response than off axis. I know you don't believe much in EQ, Audysssey, ARC etc but that's you, many of us do believe in the merits of those features for home applications. My HT/music room seems to have a very decent acoustic environment so I do prefer the pure direct mode for music listening. That being said I think the technological advance of room eq is one of the best thing happening to us audioholics in recent years. I also think WmAx is quite right about the benefits of having a flat freq response characteristics to begin with, presumably making it a easy candidate for room eq.

I prefer speakers that come either already EQ'ed to sound great or already sound great without EQ.

That's where we disagree. You believe AJ and others because you they told you what you like to believe (such as if the off axis response is good it will be good in every room). I happen to believe even your favorite speakers will sound different in different room acoustic environments, there isn't much the manufacturers can do to make their speakers sound the best in any acoustic environments. They could perhaps make them less sensitive to various room acoustic conditions but not independent from them. So overall we probably disagree in 1 out of 4 or 5,..... amazing!!

 

[GranteedEV]

Toyota use JBL. Lexus use Mark Levinson. This is a company that know what they are doing.

It's all Harman Automotive stuff. Call one JBL and the other Mark Levinson, but I'd bet it's the same engineers.

Volkswagen is one of my favorite car companies, I just don't get why Audi is in the "Bose Trap". The R8 at least does not use Bose. It uses Bang and Olufsen

If you can't talk your sister into getting the Volkswagen, she can buy an A4, but without the sound system, and then go to a Volkswagen dealer for the audio system made for a Passat (assuming you/she like it better than comparably priced aftermarket stereo gear).

I'm just gonna let her get whatever she wants. I honestly thought that dollar for dollar that the Passat was just a better car but it is what it is. I think she's gonna end up getting the typical "market-saturated entry-level luxury brand car" IE C-Class Benz or Lexus IS... it's her money, though.

 

[PENG]

I can confirm that even the KEF 201/2 bookshelf has A LOT of bass for it's size. I mean this little thing goes down to 50Hz, especially in-room response.

When I first heard the KEF 201/2, I couldn't believe the amount of bass I was hearing from those things.

Of course, bookshelf speakers are meant to be used with subwoofers.

But if the 201/2 has that much bass in-room, I would say the bigger KEFs have a lot more bass than what their anechoic measurement says, especially in-room bass.

The KEF 203/2 has a bass extension of 40Hz (-6dB).

The 205/2 has a bass extension of 35Hz (-6dB).

The KEF 203/2 is $10K/pr retail, but you might be able to obtain for ~ $5K new.

The KEF 205/2 is $14K/pr retail, but you might get for ~ $7K new.

But I would rather get a pair of 201/2 for $3K/pr new and get dual Rythmik subs for $2K.

My concern about weak bass is based on past experience with their 10X/Y reference series. Other than that to me their reference speakers are top notch. Where can I get a pair of 205/2 for 7K? You are the only person I know who seem to be able to get top gear for much lower than their list prices. Even for 7K I am not ready yet but am interested to know that it can be done. Thanks again in advance.

 

[PENG]

I can't wait for the actual measurements of the Sony speaker.

I went back to Chapter to re-read the stereophile review. All the graphs were there. I guess it is okay for me to summarize what I could remember, hopefully accurate enough, as follow:

FR ----- within +/- 1.5 dB for the most part, say approximately 250 to 10K, a few dB higher around the 50 to 80 Hz and there peaks, may be +3 to 3.5 dB around the 18Khz mark.

Impedance/phase angle ----- dip to 2.7 ohms in a few places, 3.4 ohm and -53 degree at around 70 Hz.

Waterfall ------ Hard to quote any numbers but it looked pretty good, nothing jumped out as such. The person who took the measurements mentioned that the boost in the top octave would result in correct balance in rooms of small to moderate size because the tweeter did become more directional in that region.

Kal Rubinsion, the reviewer said something about the bass being disproportionate (he meant it in a good way) to the speaker's size. He did not compare the Sony with the Salon 2 but the Ultima Studio 2 that he had reviewed before. If I remember correctly his MC303 didn't make the Sony sound good enough to him but the 1000W Bel Canto monoblocks did.

One thing I like about this speaker is that it is small enough to squeeze in my room. Still, it is immaterial because even if offered a 70% discount I still cannot afford it, even though it is just a Sony..

 

[Seth=L]

If I learned one thing in this thread, it's that some people like to talk a lot.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My concern about weak bass is based on past experience with their 10X/Y reference series. Other than that to me their reference speakers are top notch. Where can I get a pair of 205/2 for 7K? You are the only person I know who seem to be able to get top gear for much lower than their list prices. Even for 7K I am not ready yet but am interested to know that it can be done. Thanks again in advance.

I'll PM you when I actually get all the speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

FR ----- within +/- 1.5 dB for the most part, say approximately 250 to 10K, a few dB higher around the 50 to 80 Hz and there peaks, may be +3 to 3.5 dB around the 18Khz mark.

The +/- 1.5dB from 250Hz - 10kHz is great.

The +3 to 3.5dB @ 18kHz is okay for $2.7k speakers, but not for $27K speakers.

Have you seen the latest HTM measurement of the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand?

This thing costs $4.5K/pr and has a FR of + 2.84/ -6.48dB from 200Hz-10kHz 5-point avg.

Am I wrong by saying that I just lost total respect for Vienna Acoustics?