Salon 2, 8XXD, or SS-AR-1?

[GranteedEV]

You believe AJ and others because you they told you what you like to believe (such as if the off axis response is good it will be good in every room). I happen to believe even your favorite speakers will sound different in different room acoustic environments, there isn't much the manufacturers can do to make their speakers sound the best in any acoustic environments. They could perhaps make them less sensitive to various room acoustic conditions but not independent from them. So overall we probably disagree in 1 out of 4 or 5,..... amazing!!

Like you, in my opinion the bolded part is NOT true. However I don't believe in speaker treatments (fixing problems in timbre caused by off axis flareups and general raggedness). Rooms have a sound, no doubt about it. But 70+% of living rooms sound pretty acceptable if the speakers aren't Wilson Watt Puppies. If you need to fix the room for a smooth and consistent decay and lifelike reverb, that's fine, and if you need to EQ down a frequency that's causing ringing IE drywall that's fine too. If you need to fix the speaker itself with EQ or sound panels, I don't think that's a good approach to start with... unless it's a speaker with such good off axis response that the only issue is getting a smooth on axis response.

So what you said as far as less "sensitive" is how I feel. The room issues should be an analysis over a longer period of time, not the effect on the first 10-15ms of what you hear. If the room is affecting the first 10-15ms then the speaker is problematic, if the room is affecting what's past 20ms or so, then analyze the room and fix it - but chances are all you might need to do is add things like bookshelves, rugs, and less reflective couches

Ultimately I think smooth polar response and a tapering, smooth power response is really really really important. Rooms affect what we hear, but we shouldn't have to compromise them for speakers . I think if a speaker needs 1st/2nd reflection point absorption panels to sound fundamentally right, it's not a good speaker, although of course at lesser price points it's understandable.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did not get the impression from AJinFL that the off-axis was absolutely crucial, but on a $16K speakers, I think AJ expected a lot better.

Look at the Salon2, KEF 207/2, and KEF 201/2 measurements on Stereophile and Soundstage.

Sure, no speaker measures perfectly on everything, but these speakers don't have a SINGLE terrible measurement.

Can anyone look at these speakers and say, "The Infinity P360 or any other cheaper speakers measure much better on so and so parameters"?

It doesn't have to be horizontal off-axis or vertical off-axis. It could be any other measurements.

Do these high-end speakers measure a lot better than any other speakers that cost A LOT less?

I think the point is, for $16K, the B&W 802D should not have a single TERRIBLE measurement. At worst, it should equal a $500/pr speaker on ANY given measurement. The FACT that a $16K speaker severely got its a$$ kicked on 2 measurements by a $500 speaker should raise some flags and not be overlooked and brushed under the rugs.

Sure, it's not everything. It's not the only thing. It's not the most important. But it is SOMETHING. To be exact, it is TWO things.

Does the Salon2, Studio2, KEF 207/2, KEF 201/2 have ONE thing terrible?

Does the Sony $27K speaker have ONE thing terrible?

If the P360 had a terrible horizontal & vertical off-axis response, people would say, "So, what? What do you expect? They are cheaply made speakers!"

What excuse does B&W have for the 802D?

We charge you $16K, and we don't care at all about the off-axis response since the off-axis response is 100% useless and unimportant? People should not even measure off-axis response? They should only measure cabinet resonance since it is the most important? Who cares about off-axis.

If the Sony $27K measures 35Hz-20kHz +/-3.5dB on axis, I would say it is NOT a great speaker.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

May be I should just settle for some mid end... B&W 803D...

Even though the Def Tech tower measures better?

The 803D's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.90/–3.68 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

The Def Tech BP-8080ST’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +3.12/–2.11 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

The Paradigm S8 measures a lot better than both.

I think B&W sounds a lot more like Paradigm than KEF.

So if you love the sound of B&W, I would get the Paradigm S8.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would interested to see the Stereophile measurement of the SS-AR-1.

I would also like to see the measurement of the B&W 800Diamond.

I have to wonder why there isn't one already on Stereophile???

What is B&W AFRAID of?

Don't they want everyone to know how great their speakers are?

Is anyone else interested to know?

Are Stereophile, Soundstage, and Home Theater Mag on bad terms with B&W?

Or is the economy so bad that B&W cannot lend a pair to review?

 

[PENG]

Even though the Def Tech tower measures better?

The 803D's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.90/–3.68 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

Wow that's quite a bite!! I don't have such luck fishing on the lake even with live bait..

 

[PENG]

The Paradigm S8 measures a lot better than both.

I think B&W sounds a lot more like Paradigm than KEF.

So if you love the sound of B&W, I would get the Paradigm S8.

I am trying to find time and place to audition the S6. I visited one dealer yesterday who has the Studios but no Sigs. The Studio 60 (the rep couldn't tell me if it was V4 or 5) sounded similar to my V2.3i. I never like the V2 and 3 that much.

I will not consider the S8. They are too big for my room, looks ugly to me, and I can't afford them even if I like them.

 

[Docks]

PENG
Check the measurements

The S8's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.92/–1.44 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3dB point is at 42 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 35 Hz.

The F52's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.44/–2.37 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 41 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 25 Hz.

The 803D's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.90/–3.68 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at 46 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 37 Hz.

The Synchrony One's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.18/–2.24 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 56 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 50 Hz.

I wouldn't worry too much about the LF because the distortion becomes high in all of these (yes even the famous salons exhibit this too).
A sub will clean this up.

This is home theater mag measurements though. (To be taken with a grain of salt) BTW they use the paradigms as their reference too.
I trust the National Research Council of Canada measurements over the rest.
For example the Synch ones on the home theater mag look very rolled off in the higher frequencies, but they don't show this in a true anechoic chamber.

Have you considered used Paradigm S8 V2's? (still use the be tweeter and have the same bracing). You can get them cheap!
If you are also considering something around that price consider PSB Synchrony ones. Also very nice, I do think the Paradigm sigs are a bit better though.
Both of these speakers will sound brighter than B&W's due to the B&W's rolled off nature.
Perhaps Revel F52s? I see used pairs going for cheap as well. Again in the same league as the above speakers, perhaps a TINY smidgen less accurate than the paradigms and without the crazy bracing.

If you are considering B&W I would pass on the 803 and go straight to an older 802 or 800 for the money (much better cabinet).

Keep us posted with how the search goes!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The S8's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.92/–1.44 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3dB point is at 42 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 35 Hz.

The F52's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.44/–2.37 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 41 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 25 Hz.

The 803D's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.90/–3.68 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at 46 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 37 Hz.

The Synchrony One's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.18/–2.24 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 56 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 50 Hz.

Of these four, I think the B&W is the best looking hands down. I always loved the way these B&Ws look aesthetically.

Unfortunately, their measurements are the worst of the four.

You wouldn't believe it, but I always wished the 800Ds sounded perfectly to me and measured perfectly on Soundstage/Stereophile/HTMag/SVMag.

But as they are, I would take the Revel F52, which Ultimate AV Mag compares to the Revel Salon 1 speakers, which a lot of folks compare to the Salon 2.

What about the (retail $7K) Revel F52 for $5K (delivered) dealer authorized?

If you are considering B&W I would pass on the 803 and go straight to an older 802 or 800 for the money (much better cabinet).

That may be true, but will they MEASURE any better as far as Freq Resp?

The 5-point avg takes into account both on-axis and off-axis. We know the 802D did not excel on the off-axis. So they may not perform that great on the 5-point avg FR.

And who knows how the 800D measures since NOBODY has any 3rd party measurements after ALL THESE YEARS.

I still cannot believe that people would spend $23K on speakers with absolutely no history of any 3rd party measurements whatsoever.

It seems like Paradigm, PSB, and Revel are the only ones with consistent 3rd party speaker measurements in this group.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Dss

I am trying to find time and place to audition the S6. I visited one dealer yesterday who has the Studios but no Sigs. The Studio 60 (the rep couldn't tell me if it was V4 or 5) sounded similar to my V2.3i. I never like the V2 and 3 that much.

I will not consider the S8. They are too big for my room, looks ugly to me, and I can't afford them even if I like them.

It seems like both you and DenPureSound are searching for that DSS - Dream Speaker System.

Doesn't it make you worry just a little bit how some versions sounded better than others (V2, V3)?

I guess as long as YOUR version sounds great to you, that is all that matters.

DOCKS mentioned that the Orions have too many updates and versions. But according to a lot of people, including The Audio Critics' Peter Aczel and Seigfried Linkwitz himself, all these versions sound more A LIKE than they differ. In other words, the changes are only so slight, and every version sounds great.

Just like the Salon1 sounded great, and the Salon2 sounds great.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just for kicks, here is the B&W 805D bookshelf speakers, which costs $2,500 each:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/b...-labs-measures

The 805D’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +4.84/–2.06 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

I don't even want to say anything, so please don't ask me to say anything. I mean really please.

They remind me of.......No, I won't say it. I will not say it. Will power. Restrain yourself! Stop it! Compose yourself! I command you!

 

[PENG]

Just for kicks, here is the B&W 805D bookshelf speakers, which costs $2,500 each:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/b...-labs-measures

The 805D’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +4.84/–2.06 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

I don't even want to say anything, so please don't ask me to say anything. I mean really please.

They remind me of.......No, I won't say it. I will not say it. Will power. Restrain yourself! Stop it! Compose yourself! I command you!

No you don't have to say anything yet I heard you loud and clear. You probably remember I do subscribe to HTM and I am almost certain you know I would have read that review already. Yes I know the graphs and numbers don't look too well but HTM rated them top choice anyway as they had done so many times before to other speakers. They had also routinely reviewed speakers with better looking graphs but rated them lower.

I have the feeling that unlike electronic components, graphs/specs don't carry as much weights. The room effect is probably a big reason for that but of course a couple of your idols seem to believe the speaker is the problem not the room (you guess right, I believe they may be partially correct at best).

Regardless, I do think for B&W we pay premium for their looks and finish qualities. Now that the newer Signatures especially the S6 looks quite nice and not like tomb stones any more, they are on top of my list. PSB has received some rave reviews but if I can't get the diamond I want to get the P-Be dome tweeter that is also supposed to be smooth. That being said, like last time I will audition each carefully before making a decision. I always have trouble hearing differences between amps and preamps but I have no such trouble with speakers. Last time I like the Veritas most at the $5 and below price point, this time it could well be the S6 (>6K in Canada), Synchrony or the 205/2. The KEF will most likely be beyond my reach unless you are right about their discounted price.

 

[PENG]

Have you considered used Paradigm S8 V2's? (still use the be tweeter and have the same bracing).

They may have the same P-Be but the V3 has other 'improvements'. I am not sure if the V2 is still available new with full warranty. And no the S8 is really too big for may 12X20X8 room. It would have been a no brainer for me if the 205/2 is not so pricey in Canada. Well I guess I can say the same about lots of things.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No you don't have to say anything yet I heard you loud and clear. You probably remember I do subscribe to HTM and I am almost certain you know I would have read that review already. Yes I know the graphs and numbers don't look too well but HTM rated them top choice anyway as they had done so many times before to other speakers. They had also routinely reviewed speakers with better looking graphs but rated them lower.

Oh, that's does it! I'm cancelling my HTM subscription!

Well, it is true to me that graphs and measurements don't tell the whole story when it comes to speakers.

The Def Tech BP7000SC did not measure as well as some speakers, and yet I thought they sounded a lot better than most speakers. I can't explain it.

The Paradigm Studio 100 and PSB Imagine T measured better than the BP7000, but I thought the BP7000 sounded 100% better than both.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference...AGAIN.

So I get the point.

No more making fun of B&W speaker graphs.

I have to admit that I do have a big mouth.

 

[PENG]

Oh, that's does it! I'm cancelling my HTM subscription!

Well, it is true to me that graphs and measurements don't tell the whole story when it comes to speakers.

The Def Tech BP7000SC did not measure as well as some speakers, and yet I thought they sounded a lot better than most speakers. I can't explain it.

The Paradigm Studio 100 and PSB Imagine T measured better than the BP7000, but I thought the BP7000 sounded 100% better than both.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference...AGAIN.

So I get the point.

No more making fun of B&W speaker graphs.

I have to admit that I do have a big mouth.

I do value specs, lab measurements/graphs. I am just saying that for electronic components such as amps that's pretty much all that matter but for speakers it depends also on the acoustic environments they are in so the graphs obtained by a particular lab measurement in a particular acoustic environment may not tell the whole story.

Shopping for amps I won't just say trust my ears but I will trust specs and graphs. I cannot say I will go by the say rule when shopping for speakers, in fact I would say the opposite would almost be true.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do value specs, lab measurements/graphs. I am just saying that for electronic components such as amps that's pretty much all that matter but for speakers it depends also on the acoustic environments they are in so the graphs obtained by a particular lab measurement in a particular acoustic environment may not tell the whole story.

Shopping for amps I won't just say trust my ears but I will trust specs and graphs. I cannot say I will go by the say rule when shopping for speakers, in fact I would say the opposite would almost be true.

That is why we all audition speakers.

We have ideas in our minds regarding how some speakers will sound, but it doesn't always work out like that.

What's the odds of any of us auditioning those Sony speakers?