Salk SoundScape 8

[GranteedEV]

Toole's book (6.1.3) talks a bit about vertical reflections:

Although the threshold levels might be surprising, intuition is rewarded in that the dominant audible effect of the lateral reflection was spaciousness (the result of interaural differences) and that of the vertical reflection was timbre change (the result of spectral differences).

In terms of timbre changes, only the noise signal was able to show any audible effects and then only for the floor reflection; speech revealed no audible effects on timbre. Looking at the absorption coefficients used in modeling the floor reflection (Bech, 1996, Table II) reveals that
the simulated floor was significantly more reflective than would be the case if it had been covered by a conventional clipped pile carpet on a felt underlay.

Further investigations revealed that the detection was based mainly on sounds in the 500Hz–2kHz range, meaning that ordinary room furnishings are likely to be highly effective at reducing first reflections below threshold, even for the more demanding signal: broadband pink noise.

In terms of spatial aspects, Bech (1998) concluded that those sounds above ∼2 kHz contributed to audibility and that “only the first-order floor reflection will contribute to the spatial aspects.” The effect was not large, and, as before, speech was less revealing than broadband noise. Again, this is a case where a good carpet and underlay would appear to be sufficient to eliminate any audible effect.

Take from that what you will.

 

[Irvrobinson]

He has Salons? Ahh...now his attitude towards me makes sense. I meant no offense by saying the SS8's are better than the Salon's, Irvrobinson. Both are fantastic speakers and are nicer than what I have now.

I was not offended, and that was not the reason why I gave you hard time over all of that hyperbole. I didn't design the Salon 2, I just bought it. If I heard something else better I'd consider selling them and buying what sounded better, assuming they were practical for me. (Unlike, for example, the Sound Labs.) I'm not brand-loyal, in anything, actually.

The SS12s were not available when I purchased the Salon 2s, and since I'm not really looking to be in the market, it's unlikely I'm going to fly anywhere to listen to them, unless someone I trusted made me believe it was worth the time and money. I did travel the last time I was shopping.

Like I said before, great speakers strike me as sounding more and more alike lately. Some dipoles do seem to sound different sometimes, especially panel speakers, but once you hit a certain level of performance I think the differences are getting rather subtle, when the speakers are properly set up. Some speakers are inherently easier, I think, to set up, like the Orions, and some aren't, like the Salon 2s, IMO, but once you get them right the differences are getting less obvious in the latest products.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some speakers are inherently easier, I think, to set up, like the Orions, and some aren't, like the Salon 2s, IMO, but once you get them right the differences are getting less obvious in the latest products.

Perhaps it depends on the room.

It seems to me the Salon2 is easier to place than Orion in my room.

When I place the Orion 6" from the side walls, they sound kind of "weird".

When I place the Salon 6" from the side walls, they sound kind of the same to me as when they are 4' from the side walls.

 

[Nuance AH]

Perhaps it depends on the room.

It seems to me the Salon2 is easier to place than Orion in my room.

When I place the Orion 6" from the side walls, they sound kind of "weird".

When I place the Salon 6" from the side walls, they sound kind of the same to me as when they are 4' from the side walls.

Unless your room is treated well or the room boundary settings on the Salon's are heavily at play the Revels should sound quite a bit different when closer to the side walls and at a different axis with the LP. If you cannot hear the change then that must explain why you think all those speakers sound the same. LOL - I'm sorry...you really set yourself up for that one and I couldn't resist.

Seriously, though, there should be a noticeable change. If there isn't, either you aren't listening close enough, your room is amazing or the combination of controlled directivity and boundary settings on the Revels performs wonders.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Perhaps it depends on the room.

It seems to me the Salon2 is easier to place than Orion in my room.

When I place the Orion 6" from the side walls, they sound kind of "weird".

When I place the Salon 6" from the side walls, they sound kind of the same to me as when they are 4' from the side walls.

Hmmm... my experiences were different. When I auditioned the Orions I asked Rick (the private owner) how he placed them, and he said he just plopped them down where he felt they worked best for his listening seat, which happened to be about four feet out from the back wall, and three feet from the side walls. He did no "micro placement for room modes, and his Orions sounded quite good to me. As I've mentioned many times before, my Salon 2s have been... annoying... to place, and drove me to a sub. My previous Legacy Audio Focus were very easy to situate for best sound.

 

[DS-21]

Some speakers are inherently easier, I think, to set up, like the Orions, and some aren't, like the Salon 2s, IMO, but once you get them right the differences are getting less obvious in the latest products.

That strikes me as odd, too.

Admittedly, I've only heard the Orions once (the newest version with up-and-down Seas bass drivers, set up by SL at the hifi show in ATL last year) but I do have a bit of experience with one of SL's predecessor dipoles, the Audio Artistry Dvorak. They were very, very picky as to sidewall distance, back wall distance, and rotation. Both for the panels and the separate bass bins! Hard to set up, especially with the comparatively primitive tools available in the early 21st century. (No FuzzMeasure for me, no Omnimic for you, and few if any hobbyists even thought of, let alone had, calibrated mikes.) I'd count them has the hardest-to-get-right speakers I've experienced.

IMO, if you find a wide-coverage speaker that's monopole down to practically 20Hz hard to set up, that suggests to me either that (if the set-up issues occur anywhere above the bass) a narrower-coverage speaker would be a better match to that room, or (if the set-up issues are in the modal region or below) that the room is crying out for a well-executed multisub setup.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you cannot hear the change then that must explain why you think all those speakers sound the same. Seriously, though, there should be a noticeable change.

Because my Orion are like 2.5 ft from the side wall & my Salon are 3.5 ft from the side walls.

I was referring to my experimentation with placement back then.

As Irvrobinson says, once you have them properly set up/ placed, then they sound more alike.

IOW, my Orion are not sitting 6" from the side walls.

My Salon2 are not either.

I was saying during my experimentation, I did not notice any significant differences on the Salon2.

But how would you know since you have never had the Salon2 & Orion in your room? Doh.

Come to think of it, you've never heard the Salon2, Orion, KEF, & Soundscape side by side in the same exact room either. Double Doh.

But seriously, the reason I don't like feet on my speakers is because I want to be able to easily slide the speakers across the smooth carpet for better placement for critical listening. Even if that means placing the Orion 4 ft from the side walls and 4 ft from the front wall. Afterwards I can easily slide them back.

 

[Nuance AH]

I was saying during my experimentation, I did not notice any significant differences on the Salon2.

But how would you know since you have never had the Salon2 & Orion in your room? Doh.

I know that's what you were saying buddy, and my comments still hold true. When you were experimenting you should have noticed some sort of difference, even if it was small. If you didn't, then your room is a major factor in the equation that you need to remove, or the Revel's are just that good. I'm betting it's the former, though, even though the Revels are a superb speakers. I can't say I've ever heard any speaker not sound at least a little different (imaging, sound stage, tonality, less HF energy, bass response, etc) when moved closer to a boundary or further off-axis from the LP. In some instances we're talking small changes, but they were still audible.

My room and the aforementioned speakers not having been in said room have nothing to do with anything. Oh, and if I were you I'd move those Orions further off the side walls. It wouldn't surprise me if you were crippling their performance.

That strikes me as odd, too.

Admittedly, I've only heard the Orions once (the newest version with up-and-down Seas bass drivers, set up by SL at the hifi show in ATL last year) but I do have a bit of experience with one of SL's predecessor dipoles, the Audio Artistry Dvorak. They were very, very picky as to sidewall distance, back wall distance, and rotation. Both for the panels and the separate bass bins! Hard to set up, especially with the comparatively primitive tools available in the early 21st century. (No FuzzMeasure for me, no Omnimic for you, and few if any hobbyists even thought of, let alone had, calibrated mikes.) I'd count them has the hardest-to-get-right speakers I've experienced.

Doesn't Sigfried Linkwitz state that the speakers are highly dependent on room placement and interaction? Perhaps things have changed with the newest revision of the Orions, but when the original pair was released I'm pretty sure Linkwitz recommended a certain distance from the boundaries, and like Richard Vandersteen offered to assist in picking the proper in-room placement. I agree that simply plopping them down is a bad idea. Heck, it's a bad idea for any speaker.

 

[Nuance AH]

Toole's book (6.1.3) talks a bit about vertical reflections:




Take from that what you will.

Good post. So in other words it's moot in a typical home setting? Obviously the lateral reflections are the ones that Toole's listening panel preferred, as it added to apparent source width. It does depend on the room size and off-axis and polar response of the speakers, though, of course

So with that said, if you're listening in a small room, say 12 feet wide, would it be better to put room treats on the back walls (behind the speakers) or the side walls? Let's not consider the floor and ceiling reflections for the time being.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That strikes me as odd, too.

It might just be that Rick got lucky on the first try just plopping them into a convenient spot. His room is also very, very nice, in that it quite large, not square, and has high ceilings (peaking at, I'm guessing, about 15 feet). So the room might have made it easy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...four feet out from the back wall, and three feet from the side walls. He did no "micro placement for room modes...

That is very good speaker placement to me.

Try putting the Orion 1ft from the front and side walls. I think you will find that they will sound a little weird.

And I've never liked room EQ either. I always turn Audyssey off.

 

[GranteedEV]

Good post. So in other words it's moot in a typical home setting?

It seems to make sense as 99% of speakers have crappy vertical polars but i don't know how I should interpret it. I still think diffusion panels should be used on ceiling 1R points.

So with that said, if you're listening in a small room, say 12 feet wide, would it be better to put room treats on the back walls (behind the speakers) or the side walls?

Back wall and side wall but not the side wall 1st reflection rather broad bass traps higher up above the reflection point.

 

[Nuance AH]

It seems to make sense as 99% of speakers have crappy vertical polars but i don't know how I should interpret it. I still think diffusion panels should be used on ceiling 1R points.

I completely agree. After I purchase bass traps to replace the lousy ones I made, I'll be adding ceiling diffusion from Gik. They sell drop in diffusion tiles for basement drop ceilings, which is what I have. Sweet!

 

[DS-21]

Try putting the Orion 1ft from the front and side walls. I think you will find that they will sound a little weird.

That's the main reason why OB speakers of any sort (even the best of genre that I've heard, Quad ESL-63's atop Gradient SW-63 sub-stands) will never find a way into any space I own. One can design a monopole to do quite well close to, on, or in walls. With an OB, that is impossible. They have to jut well out into the room.

IMO, audio is best heard and not seen.

As an aside, should you ever get the bug to expanding your speaker collection again, one that you might find interesting is the Gradient Revolution.

It combines a lot of the best attributes of the Orions and the KEFs. Though the Seas coincident driver they use isn't IMO as good as current Uni-Q's, the crossover design is excellent and the speakers overall are in my top handful of best-sounding that I've heard. Given a choice only between the two, I would take Revolutions over Orions.

And I've never liked room EQ either. I always turn Audyssey off.

You might find that you like ARC, if you give it a shot. I was lukewarm on Audyssey (mostly because the crappy speakers midrange compensation notch is quite audible) but dealt with it because I found great benefit from their DynamicEQ loudness compensation software at my typical listening levels.

 

[GranteedEV]

The SS12s were not available when I purchased the Salon 2s, and since I'm not really looking to be in the market, it's unlikely I'm going to fly anywhere to listen to them, unless someone I trusted made me believe it was worth the time and money. I did travel the last time I was shopping..

Where abouts do you live anyways? There might even be a SS12 owner near you. these Salk fanatics don't mind strangers with artillery inside their homes as long as it's for mewjick.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My room and the aforementioned speakers not having been in said room have nothing to do with anything.

How can you truly critically and effectively compare the speakers unless they were all in the same room and over an extended amount of time, not just a couple of hours as Gene often says?

Room acoustics play a major role, and every room is different, right?

Hypothesis is one thing. Speaker A should sound like this, and speaker B should sound like that. But how the speakers actually sound and interact in any given room is another thing.

 

[GranteedEV]

How can you truly critically and effectively compare the speakers unless they were all in the same room and over an extended amount of time, not just a couple of hours as Gene often says?

Let's put this topic on hold for another week or two. Then we will have a conclusive answer on the matter.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Let's put this topic on hold for another week or two. Then we will have a conclusive answer on the matter.

You mean when the Phil3 will represent the Salk Nation?

BTW, my 3rd pair of KEF 201/2 will be in my hot little hands this weekend. I'm having a hard time deciding to go with 6.1, or 5.1 and just keep the 6th 201/2 in the box, just like I will be keeping my Denon 4010UD & 3800 BD players in their boxes.

 

[cpp]

How can you truly critically and effectively compare the speakers unless they were all in the same room and over an extended amount of time, not just a couple of hours as Gene often says

that's the smartest thing I've seen written in a while when it comes to comparing speakers. A speaker might sound great in one person's home and the same speaker might sound horrid in another.

 

[GranteedEV]

You mean when the Phil3 will represent the Salk Nation?

The answer to ALL our questions!!

- Is the RAAL a FAD?
- Is open back better than true monopole?
- Is absolute anechoic chamber measured controlled-directivity necessary or will smooth power response + flat frequency response suffice overall?
- Is red truly the BEST?
- Can transmission line bass be identified from ported and non-bottoming-out dipole bass??
- Will ADTG's room implode from speaker overload?
- Are TWO projectors really better than ONE?
- Is Dennis going to have to hire local high school students to start working for him for minimum wage to keep up with demand?

...Stay Tuned.