Rockets versus B&W's

[craigsub]

I DID read it...

The evidence is burried in those thousands of pages of Rocket related threads on the avsforum from about a year and half ago. You want the truth, you go and read those threads yourself.

And while you are at it, ask David Bott, the owner and operator of the avsforum of what he thought was going on during that whole Rocket debacle. And ask him why he banned so many Rocket "owners" from posting on the avsforum, and why he has been actively closing down many Rocket hype threads ever since.

I read the threads ... have talked to David Bott... and now am certain you just CANNOT back up your accusations with any evidence.

 

[furrycute]

Craigsub, read it again.



Come to think of it, craigsub, I do remember recently reading one your threads on the Rockets, and there was a resurrgence of the Rocket hype in your thread. David Bott did post in that thread summarizing what really happened during that Rocket debacle. In subtle language, he implied that originally he helped Mark L. Schifter start the promotion of his speakers on his forum. Then things got out of control, and David Bott was really upset that the Rocket line of speakers was getting all the promotion on the avsforum without av123 reimbursing him for all the free promotion. Looks like there were some behind the scenes negotiations, but that apparently went nowhere. Coupled with all the backlash against the Rockets, David Bott finally banned from Rocket "owners" and things finally quieted down over at the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what was really going on.

 

[craigsub]

Unreal...

FC ... There was a lot of back and forth between Rocket buyers and anti Rocket people... and yes, it was over the top on both sides.

That is not the issue here.

What is the issue is YOUR list of accusations.

1. YOU said AV123 used employees ro register as independent consumers on the various forums to hype up the (Rocket) products.

We will start here. Can you prove this or can't you ? This is a yes or no question ...

 

[furrycute]

Here, found David Bott's reply to your meet thread on the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what David was saying. Obviously he was being subtle, but the accusations are right there between the lines.






As you can see by this thread...this is why we made a note to say...

So in thinking along these lines we ask...Please No More Threads such as....

"I just bought "blank" and they are the best"
"I have my "blank" on order"
"Another Happy "blank" customer"


More or less such posts are not a support post, but one that comes as to promote a product. Maybe the intent of the person was not to do this as such, but was more of wanting to give information, but based on past events, it can very much make for issues.

It has been said..."Why should we market on any site when we can let our buyers do it for us." Thus is the issue at hand when you see users making such posts. It is not just in this section mind you, but we fight this forum wide. In this area however, we have a number of Internet only sales companies that can make a great deal of money from this site even without supporting the site itself. Thus you may perceive more posts closed or removed from these types of companies but this is solely because of the ratio of posts made vs others of the promotion type. (Note...even if such companies were a sponsor, we still would not care for it to continue. We have even declined ad dollars based on a company feeling they had the right to promote in threads.)

All in all...We are looking for SUPPORT type threads. Helping people get the most out of what they own be it audio or video. Speakers are VERY subjective and what I like you may not. However, if a person is looking for speakers and see the same company over and over and over again being mentioned...what do you think they will buy based on "I love this line" type posts. People will ALWAYS promote what they own.

The people you see who promote this brand and defend it...guess what...They own them (At least most do). The people you see attacking the brand...guess what...They are tired of the hype (thats it). The people you see trying to help by asking about room setup and other gear used...guess what...They really are trying to be helpful.

That is the way we see it on this end dealing with the PM's, E-Mail, etc.

Seeing this is a topic on Rocket I will say that yes their is a history here. However I will also say is really, really has toned down quite a bit. Mark Shifter, the owner of AV123, is a great guy who cares to make fine products for the A/V world. He stands behind his products and care greatly about the customer. We have a long time friendship that has had it's ups and downs. However he also understands the issues that can be made by over zealous owners.

I kindly ask that the back and fourth stop and we get on to helping people achieve the best performance from the gear they own.

Ok...Just read this and need to respond..."Unfortunately the very same distribution method was heavily critized (still to this day) since it was perceived by some to have a strategy of using forums like this for marketing campaigns."

But this is the only way they were and have been marketed from that I have ever seen I am sorry to say. More or less people found out about Diva, Rockets, AV123 from forums like this. I helped Mark start the marketing of the line, way back when, when I ran his banners free of charge (Like I said, I like Mark). From that point it was all thread based posting that ended up getting out of hand. Again, not what this site is about. It is not jus there...but all forums of this type.


Thanks all and Happy Holidays!

__________________
David Bott
AVS Forum Admin
Get Aboad the 2005 Home Theater Cruise!

Last edited by David Bott on 12-14-04 at 07:59 PM

 

[zumbo]

Now that's the icing on the cake!

 

[furrycute]

And here's the link to the rest of that thread, David Bott's reply appears on page 3.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=481972&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

 

[craigsub]

Furrycute..

Still waiting for your evidence. Perhaps you need to look up the word "evidence" in the dictionary ?

 

[zumbo]

Evidence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That which makes evident or manifest; that which furnishes, or tends to furnish, proof; any mode of proof; the ground of belief or judgement; as, the evidence of our senses; evidence of the truth or falsehood of a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One who bears witness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That which is legally submitted to competent tribunal, as a means of ascertaining the truth of any alleged matter of fact under investigation before it; means of making proof; -- the latter, strictly speaking, not being synonymous with evidence, but rather the effect of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To render evident or clear; to prove; to evince; as, to evidence a fact, or the guilt of an offender.

 

[craigsub]

Ok...

NOW... Take the definitions, and prove the accusation. For example, How EXACTLY does Furrycute KNOW that AV123 employees were caught using fake names in order to pretend to be independent consumers in order to hype the product ? HE said their IP addresses were tracked. In that case, he should be able to PROVE that.

If I saw REAL proof of this, it would likely assure that I would never purchase from AV123 again... as that type of behavior WOULD be reprehensible.

 

[TinHere]

Craigsub, read it again.



Come to think of it, craigsub, I do remember recently reading one your threads on the Rockets, and there was a resurrgence of the Rocket hype in your thread. David Bott did post in that thread summarizing what really happened during that Rocket debacle. In subtle language, he implied that originally he helped Mark L. Schifter start the promotion of his speakers on his forum. Then things got out of control, and David Bott was really upset that the Rocket line of speakers was getting all the promotion on the avsforum without av123 reimbursing him for all the free promotion. Looks like there were some behind the scenes negotiations, but that apparently went nowhere. Coupled with all the backlash against the Rockets, David Bott finally banned from Rocket "owners" and things finally quieted down over at the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what was really going on.

In for a penny in for a pound.

What you call free promotion was really open discussion. The people discussing chose to discuss. Mark and members of his company joined the forum or were already members. Sean was a member before he worked for AV123. It would have not only been bad business but would have been rude not to answer questions that were being asked of them. They participated and offered their expertise on many threads that had nothing to do with AV123. During this time people were ordering speakers and reporting their opinions. The reports were mostly positive. More people bought the speakers and wanted to discuss them. The recommendations to try the Rocket's grew. Very scandalous. Not. The discussion moved to AV123's own forum where you can say you like your speakers and not get attacked. BTW that's true even if the speakers aren't made by AV123. Very few threads have been closed there.

What was scandalous was the behavior of the agenda ridden trolls. Nary a recommendation or mention of Rocket's or AV123 was permitted to stand without a trolling lie or defamatory remark. You don't have to read between the lines to see it. The beat goes on.

 

[Fb111794]

Craigsub, I was a long time active member on the avsforum during that Rocket craze. That's why I know so much about the history of the Rocket line and the history of the company av123.

After that whole Rocket debacle about a year and half ago, I became so disgusted with this Rocket cabal, I left the avsforum and have not posted since. Since you have been an active member on the avsforum, you know as well as I do the history behind the Swans and the Rockets.

And craigsub, I am still waiting for that meet date, so I can send you a quote for the roundtrip airfare.

furrycute:

You may have been a long time AVS member, but so am I. You are grossly mistating both of the threads that you refer to. For everyone else who doesn't know the TRUTH.... the title of those threads was NOT the that they were the best speaker ever. It was.... Swans Divas... The best speaker for the Money ever? That's what started it.... and it wasn't started by anyone at AV123. It was started by a happy customer that felt that he had the best speakers "for the money," ever.

The Rocket thread was started with EXACTLY the same title by once again.... a customer and in fact the very first post was..... "I COULDN'T RESIST." It went from there.

IMHO.... ALL of us want to get the very best deal possible when making a purchase.... I don't care what it is. It's just human nature. Speakers aren't any different.... so why do folks get so fired up about it? In short.... I have no idea.

The Rocket thread in question.... long since deleted from the archives.... became the longest thread on any audio board in history. It was actually quite interesting and informative untill the trolls started showing up and starting all kinds of flame wars. Their obvious intent was to attack, attack, attack.

Once AV123 started their own forum in December of 2000, that mega thread was finally closed. The trolls had a mission by then. Every single post or thread refering to Rockets in any way.... in they came and started slinging the mud. Some Rocket owners, I agree.... didn't react in an appropriate way. They were a bit over zealous in defense of their brand. Again.... as a rational and somewhat intelligent person, I can see through that and chalk it up to human nature.

Once again.... all of the back and forth was NOT perpetuated or encouraged in any way by AV123 or any of it's staff. In fact Mark Schifter MANY, MANY times came in and tried to calm things down. There was even an open letter/post my the master himself; David Bott in support of Mark Schifter and AV123 (I'm doing a search for it as well.... but it too may have been purged from the archives).

So.... if you are going to refer to something.... especially in a negative way.... please do us and yourself credit by being factual and correct in your representation of what you are saying. I can handle the fact that you maybe don't like Rockets.... that maybe you don't like the Internet direct business model.... that for some reason you don't like Mark Schifter.... All of those points are your opinion. That is fine. However, if your are going to slam them in any way.... at least be truthful in how you represent what they are about and what has ACTUALLY been said.

All of us would appreciate it I'm sure.

John W.
Indy

 

[VS540]

Furrycute and Zumbo, it's pretty sad to see people like you so hell bent on trolling and going out of their to try to piss people off and start lies like this. Zumbo especially it seems in reading other threads and post's you've been in you come in with the mind set of "it's my way or the highway".

I read the post by Bott the day he posted it, all I can make from it is that some owners of some Rockets came on and perhaps went over board on their posts. Causing a giant thread that lead to many flames and a whole lot of resentment towards AV123. But NO WHERE does it say or even begin to indicate that AV123 or it's employee's had anything to do with it. He allowed Mark to advertise via banner, but after the whole Rocket thread decided to stop virtually all talk of Rockets.

It's become pretty obvious you have NO proof of any kind what so ever to back up anything you've said. You are being nothing but malicious and show casing your 3 year old maturity level. Instead of spending money on some audio upgrades perhaps you should buy some class and maturity next...

Oh and Craig having furry cute over for a listen is a good idea but no matter how good the Rockets or Ref's sound to him he won't admit it. He'll never go back on his words because I can tell he's just that type of guy.

Oh and later this week I have to go to my local B&W dealer to pick some stuff up. I'll make it a point to listen some 703's or anything I can from the 700 series. I'm pretty sure the 750's won't match up in some areas, but I want a reference for when I get 850's.

 

[Ross]

FC and Z,

Once the consorted effort has been mounted and the hounds have been released, Team Rocket will always fall back into the gental arms of internet anonymity. True, both sides of this thread are hiding behind the veil of cyberspace, but they have much more to loose if such a scandall was definitively proven.

Your time and contributions to this forum were appreciated long before Team Rocket showed up, and will continue to be appreciated after all the dust settles.

I wouldn't waste much more energy in this matter. People's eyes have alredy been opened to the "business model" that Team R utilizes.

As long as people can look at such posts, and take them with a (tiny) grain of salt, I don't think too much of the brotherhood has been lost.

best,
Ross.

 

[Fb111794]

Oh and Craig having furry cute over for a listen is a good idea but no matter how good the Rockets or Ref's sound to him he won't admit it. He'll never go back on his words because I can tell he's just that type of guy.

VS540:

First off.... lighten up.... especially with the name calling (the 3 year old comment) that's just what gets you guys (Rocket owners) in trouble and branded as a rable.

As for the above quote.... FC won't be able to go back on his words.... because they will be posted ON THIS FORUM before speaker brands are revealed.

And.... I'm willing to bet that he's even a nice guy. Just very opinionated like the rest of us with regards to all things audio. I'm certain that once he hears for himself the strides ONIX has made with their products, maybe even meets Mark Schifter and sees first hand his passion for producing great products at affordable prices.... he JUST MIGHT come away with a new found respect for MLS and his company.

Name calling and negativism won't help your cause.

 

[craigsub]

Unbelieveable...

Ross... It is the actions and words of people like you, FC and Z and who make the world of audio an ugly place. There IS no such thing as "Team Rocket". It is a pejorative term invented to discredit a certain group of people.

There IS no evidence that the people at AV123 "invented names" on the various forums in order to "pretend to be independent consumers while hyping the product (Rocket)"...

What you people are doing is engaging in a smear campaign.

Oh yeah ... the business model. Satisfied customers ... WOW. You guys really have a point there. ANY company which counts on satisfied customers to help it grow is DOOMED to failure.

This needs taught in business schools... "Do NOT have a happy owner base" ....

 

[VS540]

FC and Z,

Once the consorted effort has been mounted and the hounds have been released, Team Rocket will always fall back into the gental arms of internet anonymity. True, both sides of this thread are hiding behind the veil of cyberspace, but they have much more to loose if such a scandall was definitively proven.

Your time and contributions to this forum were appreciated long before Team Rocket showed up, and will continue to be appreciated after all the dust settles.

I wouldn't waste much more energy in this matter. People's eyes have alredy been opened to the "business model" that Team R utilizes.

As long as people can look at such posts, and take them with a (tiny) grain of salt, I don't think too much of the brotherhood has been lost.

best,
Ross.

Again Ross I'm telling ya politics has to be in your future. You can spin and smear like the best of them. Best of luck in your future elections.

 

[zumbo]

Furrycute and Zumbo, it's pretty sad to see people like you so hell bent on trolling and going out of their to try to piss people off and start lies like this. Zumbo especially it seems in reading other threads and post's you've been in you come in with the mind set of "it's my way or the highway".

Is it sad to see. I was not aware of the "my way or the highway" mindset! A question was asked, and I gave a reply. Then, some people got upset. I am not upset. And I do not own either speaker in question.

If I was asked if I prefer men or women, well I would have to say women. If I was asked which one smells better, I would say women. If I was asked which one looked better, I would say women. And I will stand behind my decision.

But, in no way did I say Rockets were not a good product! Nor did I lie. I gave a simple opinion!

 

[cnewlander]

Many people have listened to these glowing "owner feedback" on those forums and went ahead and purchased these Rockets. They have been mightily disappointed.

I cannot say what happens on the av123 forum. But on the avsforum, at least about a year and a half ago, any negative comments about these Rockets are instantly shot down by a cabal of "fanatical Rocket owners."

Whenever someone posted that:
1) those Rockets failed to live up to their expectations,
2) do not sound good,
3) too laid back,

The inevitable response from this cabal would be:
1) the rest of your equipment are not high end enough to bring out the "true" potential of the rockets,
2) let the speakers break in, for at least 31 days (the return period ends after 30 days),
3) your listening room needs acoustic treatment,
4) you just don't have those golden ears,
5) you are simply just crazy not to love those Rockets


There, that's my summary of those glowing "owner feedback" on avsforum from about a year and half ago. Things have cleaned up a lot since that forum's administrator stepped in and gave stern warnings to that "owners'" cabal.

Can you please provide some references to your claims?

 

[Fb111794]

FC and Z,

People's eyes have alredy been opened to the "business model" that Team R utilizes.

best,
Ross.

Ross:

You are certainly right about this one.... CES this year proves this for sure.

Many MANY eyes were opened this year at CES on the sheer quality of ONIX offerings (both present and soon to be released), at insanely affordable prices. Heads are beginning to turn for sure.

The fact that they already have THOUSANDS of satisfied customers with just a "few" product offerings, bodes very well for the future of AV123 as more and more of these new products come to market.

The fact that they are putting a big hurt to the snobbish high end B&M stores that wouldn't know anything at all about customer service unless you walk in and spend $10,000 plus, and could care less about us average Joes out here trying to learn and grow in audio.... well that doesn't bother me one bit.

As one of those "Joes" trying to listen to all I could a couple of years ago, and being treated like a piriah because I wasn't there to spend money, BIG money today.... well, I say it serves them right.

I actually made an appointment at a high end dealer in Chicago (I live in Indy).... drove 3 and a half hours (they were the closest dealer at that time) so I could spend an afternoon listening to Audes speakers. When I arrived.... not only did they act like they didn't know who I was, even though I offered the confirming email showing my appointment and what I wanted to listen to, I was told that they didn't have what I wanted set up and were too busy to do so. It WAS a Saturday after all . After complaining to the very unsimpathetic manager.... I was told that they were "out of stock" on those speakers.... too bad.... so sorry.

Fortunately, a dealer was appointed here soon after and I was not only able to listen, but make a substantial purchase. Guess what? That company in Chicago is now gone and out of business. Oh darn. I am SO dissapointed. This dealer may or may not make it.... time will tell.

Internet direct companies.... especially those that manufacture most of their own products have learned some key things.... satisfy your customer at all costs. Over deliver on the price/performance issue and service each and every single customer as if they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars with you. Make them feel important and part of the "family" so to speak.

In other words.... what the old Sears & Roebuck used to be. (although, I'll give the current Sears credit for their treatment of employees and their families with regards to being called up to active duty)

Like it or not....THAT sir.... is why a lot of these Internet direct companies are not only doing quite well, but flourishing.

John W.
Indy

 

[Fb111794]

Can you please provide some references to your claims?

No he can not.

What FC fails to mention is that there WERE some issues with some of the early speakers that got through with some QC problems. Those issues were cleared up immediately and the problems were resolved. When satisfied owners chimed in and asked questions about the problems a person was having.... asking the "break in, room placement" type questions.... the trolls were quick to chime in and start the mud slinging. THAT was the reason that things often got out of hand.

Sure there were even those that simply didn't like the sound of the speakers. No one ever had a problem with that. They might again have questioned front end gear, room placement type questions, but in the end were always civil about a persons NOT liking the ONIX Rocket brand of speakers. Until, that is, the trolls would show up and start the skulldugery.

FC may have selective memory. I admit to getting a bit older myself and can be prone to that from time to time as well. I was an active participant in that thread from day one. The mega Diva thread before that as well. The charge that the Rocket crowd was accusatory of someone not having "golden ears" because they didn't like the ONIX Rockets, is simply un true.

I'm not saying that there wasn't a post from time to time that may have been that way.... but to say the whole crowd or "cable" was like that is a major falsehood in every respect.

Unfortunately.... once an accusation is made.... some automatically assume guilt without checking the facts. That may work with mass media, but I give more credit to those who frequent forums such as this one. They are far more intelligent and resourceful than FC seems to give them credit for and see through such diatribe for what it's worth.

John W.
Indy