Receiver upgrade help

Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Hey Peng, I've started going through these articles you linked and I've come across another article about amplifier voltage gain.
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

Its about matching an amp to a preamp. Even though Im going to wait a while before seriously deciding on an external amp, I'm simply trying to understand and Im curious. What Im trying to figure out is if there is a way for me to determine how many volts RMS the Denon x4100 delivers from its preouts? The article Im reading (the one I've linked above) gives some formulas, but Im in no way mathematically inclined!!! Do you know of any way I can find the answer to my question? Thanks!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey Peng, I've started going through these articles you linked and I've come across another article about amplifier voltage gain.
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

Its about matching an amp to a preamp. Even though Im going to wait a while before seriously deciding on an external amp, I'm simply trying to understand and Im curious. What Im trying to figure out is if there is a way for me to determine how many volts RMS the Denon x4100 delivers from its preouts? The article Im reading (the one I've linked above) gives some formulas, but Im in no way mathematically inclined!!! Do you know of any way I can find the answer to my question? Thanks!
That's a tough question. The problem is that manufacturers don't seem to follow the same standard and they don't tell you what standard the follow either. For example, D&M would typically say something like:

Rated output: Unbalanced pre-output: 1.2 V
Balanced pre-output: 2.4 V

I believe that's a continuous rating as well as for a particular load impedance based on a conservatively low value.

In bench tests, I have never seen any Denon AVR tested with less than 2V. Below is an example, it is the X5200W but my educated guess is that the X4200W will be very similar.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

The reviewer said:

"The AVR-X5200W has plenty of grunt via the preamp outputs to use in conjunction with virtually any separate amplifier should you desire more power. I measured unclipped output of 4.5Vrms from every channel. We like to see at least 2Vrms and the Denon met this with over 6db of margin to spare."

So the bottom line is, no worry, it will have enough output for your future external amp especially if it is going to be one of those Emo amps.:D
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Okay, so I finally got to the calculator after reading the articles. Yes, I'm slow. My kids are home this week for X-mas break so its hard to find any free time. :)

I used the second calculator link that you pasted.
340 SE mains are 92 db @ 1 watt/ 1 meter. MLP is 11 ft. Speaker placement = away from walls.
My 80 watt Pioneer calculates to 103.5.
A 125 watt Denon X4100 calculates to 105.5.

If I got an xpa-2, and lets say I pushed my Ascends to their 240 watt rating (I have no intention of trying this), I would get 108.3 db.

So from all this, wouldn't it be hard to justify spending the money on an external amp only to increase a couple of db?
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
That's a tough question. The problem is that manufacturers don't seem to follow the same standard and they don't tell you what standard the follow either. For example, D&M would typically say something like:

Rated output: Unbalanced pre-output: 1.2 V
Balanced pre-output: 2.4 V

I believe that's a continuous rating as well as for a particular load impedance based on a conservatively low value.

In bench tests, I have never seen any Denon AVR tested with less than 2V. Below is an example, it is the X5200W but my educated guess is that the X4200W will be very similar.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

The reviewer said:

"The AVR-X5200W has plenty of grunt via the preamp outputs to use in conjunction with virtually any separate amplifier should you desire more power. I measured unclipped output of 4.5Vrms from every channel. We like to see at least 2Vrms and the Denon met this with over 6db of margin to spare."

So the bottom line is, no worry, it will have enough output for your future external amp especially if it is going to be one of those Emo amps.:D

Okay, so I got my new X4100 today! Yay me! However, I wont have time to set it up until next week.

Also, I couldnt help myself and I went ahead and ordered an XPA-2. :D I was going to wait, but I wanted to just go ahead and get it while it was on sale.

Question:
The easiest way for me to hook up the xpa is going to be using the unbalanced connections correct? In this case, I simply need two rca cables to go from the AVR to the XPA, such as a cable like I use for hooking up my sub. Am I understanding this correctly?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay, so I got my new X4100 today! Yay me! However, I wont have time to set it up until next week.

Also, I couldnt help myself and I went ahead and ordered an XPA-2. :D I was going to wait, but I wanted to just go ahead and get it while it was on sale.

Question:
The easiest way for me to hook up the xpa is going to be using the unbalanced connections correct? In this case, I simply need two rca cables to go from the AVR to the XPA, such as a cable like I use for hooking up my sub. Am I understanding this correctly?
That is correct, and I am glad you did go with the XPA-2. If and when you are ready to upgrade your front speakers for serious stereo music listening, you won't have to avoid hard to drive speakers. Until then, you can enjoy the feeling of having that 72.6 lbs monster sitting there and looking good.
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
That is correct, and I am glad you did go with the XPA-2. If and when you are ready to upgrade your front speakers for serious stereo music listening, you won't have to avoid hard to drive speakers. Until then, you can enjoy the feeling of having that 72.6 lbs monster sitting there and looking good.
Okay thanks PENG. Hope you stay close by.....Im gonna have some more questions setting this up! Im already a bit anxious over the X4100. I've read the manual twice, and I've been going through the 300+ pages of the official X4100 thread over on avsforums. Thats a very looong read! Shaking my head!

So anyway, thanks for all the help so far by you and everyone else! Happy New Year! :D
 
M

Mitch Livingstone

Audiophyte
Ty Wayne,

Wonderful topic I have to say. I've learned a lot for the questions that you have asked and obviously from all the answers your have received.

My question to you is, what drove your decision to purchase the receiver and Mono-amp that you picked?
I am in the same boat right now as well, I want to upgrade slowly starting with an Amp the move onto speakers etc.. As with you, the whole Preamp, Amp, power amp stuff threw me for a huge loop.

What other receivers were in your Purchase Cart and you obviously didn't pull the trigger on and why not?
Thanks a lot..
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Yep, the people here at audioholics have been amazingly helpful. I never imagined that all of this would be such a pleasant experience!

I had a HTIB for about a decade. After that avr crashed, I went and got the current Pioneer I'm still using. I got it with little to no research, and I got it because it was cheap and also locally available at Best Buy. Basically, I've always settled for less in audio due to my lack of knowledge. It never occurred to me that I could get such friendly help online, such as these forums.

So anyway, I got that new Pioneer avr, and its done the job, but I originally had it powering those very low quality Kenwood speakers I had from the HTIB. In other words, I had sound, but it wasn't good sound! So, I got online and found audioholics. They pointed me to some great speakers....my Ascends. That was one year ago, and audio is quickly becoming quite an addiction for me.

Now, its time to update the electronics. For whatever reason, I was drawn towards Denon or Marantz. Maybe it was all the praise I'd been reading about Audyssey. I'd also read quite a bit of good things about Yamaha AVR's.

So I guess the reasons I chose the X4100 was because I'd heard so many good things about Audyssey's MultEQ XT32. Also, I wanted wifi, as well as airplay. And very importantly, I wanted the capability to add an external amplifier for more power, and my current Pioneer doesn't have the pre-outs to do that. And last, but not least, there was a very good deal (IMO) to be had by getting a NEW X4100 for $750.00. Long story short, it had all the features I wanted and it was a good price. I looked at A LOt of AVR's by the way. So many it was blowing my mind and I just became more confused. I did narrow it down to 4 or 5 at one point, and I believe I listed them in this thread somewhere, but I was continually drawn to Denon and the X4100 was recommended to me more than once.

As for the 2 ch. Emo amp, again, Emotiva was recommended several times to me and I've read a lot of positive things about them. I have absolutely zero interest in anything beyond 5.1 (with the exception of maybe adding a 2nd sub later, and again, the x4100 has dual sub management), so I felt like the xpa-2 would get me the most bang for my buck. I often like to listen pretty loud to music, so I figure the xpa-2 will be more power than I should ever really need. After the discussions I've had, I'm confident that the x4100 will handle the center and surrounds without a problem, and I'm more interested in being able to play loud in 2ch. stereo. I have no need (or desire) for a 3 or 5 ch. amp. But that's just me. To each his own. So I had a little extra cash burning a hole in my pocket, and Emotiva is currently having 20% off holiday sale, so I pulled the trigger.

If it weren't for the audioholics forum, I likely would never have bought this equipment. #1) because I wouldn't be sure on what to buy, #2) because I wont be able to set it all up without asking for expert advice. Thanks to audioholics, I'm buying all sorts of stuff!! :D
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
That is correct, and I am glad you did go with the XPA-2. If and when you are ready to upgrade your front speakers for serious stereo music listening, you won't have to avoid hard to drive speakers. Until then, you can enjoy the feeling of having that 72.6 lbs monster sitting there and looking good.

Hey PENG, I got my X4100 up and running just a bit ago. Quick question. I remember reading in a couple of places over the last few days that once you run Audyssey, you should leave it at whatever crossover setting that Audyssey sets it at. Well, it has my front L,R and my two side surrounds set at 60! It did however set my center at 80. Should I really leave the front L,R and the surrounds set at 60??? Sounds crazy to me.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey PENG, I got my X4100 up and running just a bit ago. Quick question. I remember reading in a couple of places over the last few days that once you run Audyssey, you should leave it at whatever crossover setting that Audyssey sets it at. Well, it has my front L,R and my two side surrounds set at 60! It did however set my center at 80. Should I really leave the front L,R and the surrounds set at 60??? Sounds crazy to me.
I would run it again, this time try to run it for positions that allow you follow the tips provided by the Audyssey FAQ and responses by Chris kyriakakis to questions, and the HTS site. Below are links for you if you have lots of time:D and is interested in Audyssey.

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/audyssey-room-eq-interview
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/74454-Bass-Management-and-LFE-NOT-the-same-thing-
http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/how-to
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/audio-processing/68407-audyssey-multeq-faq-setup-guide.html
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums


If you still get the same results on your 2nd attempt and don't have time to investigate further, you can just go ahead and increase the crossover to 80 Hz for the surrounds regardless.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Ty, I checked out your CBM-340SE and 170SE on the Ascend website and am now not surprised they were set to 60 Hz. They all have amazing extensions down low. So depending on their placements you could have very decent output down to 60 Hz and below. Increasing the XO to 80 Hz (THX standard?) is up to you, I would suggest you experiment 60, 80, 90 and then choose whatever sounds best to you at you preferred SPL for movies.
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Ty, I checked out your CBM-340SE and 170SE on the Ascend website and am now not surprised they were set to 60 Hz. They all have amazing extensions down low. So depending on their placements you could have very decent output down to 60 Hz and below. Increasing the XO to 80 Hz (THX standard?) is up to you, I would suggest you experiment 60, 80, 90 and then choose whatever sounds best to you at you preferred SPL for movies.
Yeah, I'm gonna mess with it a little and see what sounds good. Also, FWIW, I also posted this question over on the "official" X4100 thread at avsforums, and Jdsmoothie said that I'm mistaken about crossovers. He said you can change them after running Audyssey, but only if your increasing them, not decreasing them. This sounds more realistic to me rather than not being able to change them at all. I cant remember where I read that cant change them, but I know I've read it at least two times. It was just bad info. So anyway, thanks for the links. I'm gonna experiment a bit. :)
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I cant remember where I read that cant change them, but I know I've read it at least two times. It was just bad info. :)
Whoever said that needed to be corrected. Increasing is fine because Audyssey would have set up the filters for the lowest frequency that it set the XOs to. If you lower them, that of course you physically could, then the frequencies below the Audyssey determined XO points would not be "managed".
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Whoever said that needed to be corrected. Increasing is fine because Audyssey would have set up the filters for the lowest frequency that it set the XOs to. If you lower them, that of course you physically could, then the frequencies below the Audyssey determined XO points would not be "managed".
Absolutely LOVING this 4100 and Audyssey! Wow! I never would have dreamed that my sound would improve THIS MUCH by replacing the Pioneer. I was already impressed with my Ascends, now I'm just blown away. :D

My xpa-2 should be arriving tomorrow, so I'm also looking forward to that. But I must admit, I'm already playing pretty stinking loud...and clean! :cool:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Absolutely LOVING this 4100 and Audyssey! Wow! I never would have dreamed that my sound would improve THIS MUCH by replacing the Pioneer. I was already impressed with my Ascends, now I'm just blown away. :D

My xpa-2 should be arriving tomorrow, so I'm also looking forward to that. But I must admit, I'm already playing pretty stinking loud...and clean! :cool:
Congratulations again! Sound like you have run Audyssey successfully, try L/R bypass too in case for some reason you like it better. I can't recommend pure direct because then you will lose the sub EQ part.

The XPA-2 in theory won't, or shouldn't change SQ for you but you never know. At least Placebo is known to be effective, and it for sure will help off loading the 4100, allowing you to listen at reference level (not me:D) without fear of getting audible distortions.
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Congratulations again! Sound like you have run Audyssey successfully, try L/R bypass too in case for some reason you like it better. I can't recommend pure direct because then you will lose the sub EQ part.

The XPA-2 in theory won't, or shouldn't change SQ for you but you never know. At least Placebo is known to be effective, and it for sure will help off loading the 4100, allowing you to listen at reference level (not me:D) without fear of getting audible distortions.
Thanks PENG!

Yes, I noticed that L/R bypass the other night right after I got it set up and it made me curious so I did a small amount of reading about it. Still confuses me a bit though (or a lot). Why would one want to bypass the L/R from Audyssesy? I tried it out a couple of times but only briefly. One time I thought it sounded better and on another track I thought it sounded worse.


About reference level.......should anyone ever go beyond reference level by a few db's? Or should I set the AVR to automatically stop when I get to 0? I'm afraid when I get the amp I'll be tempted to but I don't want to ruin anything!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks PENG!

Yes, I noticed that L/R bypass the other night right after I got it set up and it made me curious so I did a small amount of reading about it. Still confuses me a bit though (or a lot). Why would one want to bypass the L/R from Audyssesy? I tried it out a couple of times but only briefly. One time I thought it sounded better and on another track I thought it sounded worse.


About reference level.......should anyone ever go beyond reference level by a few db's? Or should I set the AVR to automatically stop when I get to 0? I'm afraid when I get the amp I'll be tempted to but I don't want to ruin anything!
Some people don't like the way Audyssey EQ their sound. I assume that is due to a variety of reasons. The bypass option allows you to let Audyssey EQ the sub and surround channels only. So in 2.1 (stereo) mode, Audyssey will EQ the sub only, leaving the L/R unaffected, a win win for some.

If you ran Audyssey right, you will get reference level with volume turn to 0 and listening from your main listening position. That's 85 dB with 20 dB peaks for film mixed material. That is way too loud for a lot of people. I can't stand that kind of "loud" for more than a few seconds. I suggest you don't go there until you have the XPA hooked up. I am sure the X4100W can handle it but you will be pushing to, or close to it's limit. I think you can safety turn the volume to -10 and sit closer, say 6 ft, just to get an idea.
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Some people don't like the way Audyssey EQ their sound. I assume that is due to a variety of reasons. The bypass option allows you to let Audyssey EQ the sub and surround channels only. So in 2.1 (stereo) mode, Audyssey will EQ the sub only, leaving the L/R unaffected, a win win for some.

If you ran Audyssey right, you will get reference level with volume turn to 0 and listening from your main listening position. That's 85 dB with 20 dB peaks for film mixed material. That is way too loud for a lot of people. I can't stand that kind of "loud" for more than a few seconds. I suggest you don't go there until you have the XPA hooked up. I am sure the X4100W can handle it but you will be pushing to, or close to it's limit. I think you can safety turn the volume to -10 and sit closer, say 6 ft, just to get an idea.
Okay, but is it frowned upon to go louder than supposed reference when listening to 2 ch. music? I know music isn't mixed consistently like movies are, but assuming Audyssey has correctly set my AVR correctly by making 0 db's = reference level, should I ever go louder than that with either movies or 2 ch. music? I would never do it with movies by the way, but I am tempted to do it with 2 ch. music. Am I asking a question that doesn't have a definite answer?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay, but is it frowned upon to go louder than supposed reference when listening to 2 ch. music? I know music isn't mixed consistently like movies are, but assuming Audyssey has correctly set my AVR correctly by making 0 db's = reference level, should I ever go louder than that with either movies or 2 ch. music? I would never do it with movies by the way, but I am tempted to do it with 2 ch. music. Am I asking a question that doesn't have a definite answer?
For 2 ch music I don't think there is a "reference" as such. Listening to 2ch music at 85 dB is really loud and if not careful, you risk hearing damage. Movie is actually not as bad because you don't get 85 dB all the time. With music, if you mainly listen to normal pops, rock and roll, jazz etc., I don't think you get more than 10 dB peaks so I think you will be safe as long as you keep the AVR well ventilated. I really can't understand why people could listen to music that loud at home, regardless of hearing loss/damage concerns.
 

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