Question about Dirac & Def Tech BP9000 series

[isolar8001]

Funny...I've had Dirac on my Pioneer for a while and never felt the need to use it.
Pay for Dirac on a Denon ? Maybe if it was 50 bucks.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all the tips and perspectives folks, it helps a lot. Just as an update I finally hooked up the Denon 3800 and run a first quick Dirac calibration (with Bass control). Result is really good, at least compared to my previous Onkyo 1700 with just regular Dirac. I do have one issue in dialog is not kinda low, but otherwise I'm definitely getting a very immersive, clear and enveloping 3D surround effect, especially when engaging Auro 3D.

It could probably sound a lot better if I got proper speakers, subwoofers and ceiling Atmos speakers, but for what I have and the limitations of my room, I'm very happy with the results. I'll keep playing with Dirac to see if I can get better results.

Clear and natural speech is probably the most important and significant test of any speaker system. If speakers can't reproduce clear natural speech without Audyssey or Dirac, and boosting the center channel then there are problems.

That is a test any speaker I audition must pass with flying colors. I find that actually most speakers come up short.

 

[txenakis]

Clear and natural speech is probably the most important and significant test of any speaker system. If speakers can't reproduce clear natural speech without Audyssey or Dirac, and boosting the center channel then there are problems.

That is a test any speaker I audition must pass with flying colors. I find that actually most speakers come up short.

Completely agree. But to be fair this was just a very rough and quick Dirac calibration. I’ll see if I can improve it further. The cs9080 center channel is a proven beast so I know it’s not the speaker but rather the calibration.

 

[Danzilla31]

Thanks for all the tips and perspectives folks, it helps a lot. Just as an update I finally hooked up the Denon 3800 and run a first quick Dirac calibration (with Bass control). Result is really good, at least compared to my previous Onkyo 1700 with just regular Dirac. I do have one issue in dialog is not kinda low, but otherwise I'm definitely getting a very immersive, clear and enveloping 3D surround effect, especially when engaging Auro 3D.

It could probably sound a lot better if I got proper speakers, subwoofers and ceiling Atmos speakers, but for what I have and the limitations of my room, I'm very happy with the results. I'll keep playing with Dirac to see if I can get better results.

Most of us have limits with our rooms and we have to compromise

What's important is that you've figured out a way to make it sound great for you despite of the compromises you had to make

 

[Danzilla31]

Completely agree. But to be fair this was just a very rough and quick Dirac calibration. I’ll see if I can improve it further. The cs9080 center channel is a proven beast so I know it’s not the speaker but rather the calibration.

Out of curiosity how did Dirac set up crossovers on your towers?

 

[txenakis]

It set up everything at 70hz which is somewhat strange, so that's why I want to do another calibration.

 

[lovinthehd]

It set up everything at 70hz which is somewhat strange, so that's why I want to do another calibration.

Why would 70hz be strange particularly?

 

[Danzilla31]

It set up everything at 70hz which is somewhat strange, so that's why I want to do another calibration.

May not be strange at all are you using the subs in the deftech towers like true subs routing to the LFE? This would have your mids and highs in the towers being crossed over I can see Dirac crossing them over to 70 it depends on the room

 

[TLS Guy]

It set up everything at 70hz which is somewhat strange, so that's why I want to do another calibration.

Def Tech recommends setting the bass management crossover to 80 Hz, so 70 Hz was close. The speakers in the bass management should be set to small.

 

[txenakis]

Gonna see what another calibration brings to the table. If the dialog is still too low, is there any harm in raising the center channel's level? Or will that harm the Dirac balance?

 

[everettT]

Gonna see what another calibration brings to the table. If the dialog is still too low, is there any harm in raising the center channel's level? Or will that harm the Dirac balance?

You can certainly bump the center channel an couple of db up and see if it sounds better to you. There is always a chance that you're just amplifying an issue but you'll be able to tell. What is the crossover for the center?

 

[txenakis]

thanks will try that. It's at 70hz too.

 

[everettT]

thanks will try that. It's at 70hz too.

You can also try a higher crossover to see if it helps clear things up a bit, up to 120hz. I've sometimes found that some centers muddy the center up with lower crossover points. 80 is standard for THX as thats was the medium frequency that satisfied global non-localization for subwoofers but studies have shown that most people's hearing can't detect below 200hz unless the subs are located to the left and/or right of the MLP.

 

[Trebdp83]

While room correction does what it can concerning the speakers in the room, it can do nothing for the listeners ears. Some will find that room correction addresses all of their issues while others still have an issue. That issue is often clear dialogue.

Some tracks are smothered in effects and can overwhelm dialogue. Throw in poor placement of speakers and less than optimal settings and dialogue can be very difficult to understand.

Don’t feel locked in to room correction results. As @everettT suggested, bump the crossover and dB of center up a bit. Those setting things up manually without room correction can also play with the equalizer and adjust each speaker manually. To keep things from coming in too hot, consider 0 the ceiling of each frequency band and adjust downward.

If using the Directional Subwoofer setting, the LF and RF subs will pickup the lower frequencies of the center channel information. They’ll deliver the lower frequencies with more impact than the center channel can do itself and help clear up dialogue. Again, play around with it and enjoy!

 

[TLS Guy]

You can also try a higher crossover to see if it helps clear things up a bit, up to 120hz. I've sometimes found that some centers muddy the center up with lower crossover points. 80 is standard for THX as thats was the medium frequency that satisfied global non-localization for subwoofers but studies have shown that most people's hearing can't detect below 200hz unless the subs are located to the left and/or right of the MLP.

Sorry, but that is the wrong advice. The crossover from the mids in those Def Techs is 125 Hz. If he follows your advice then he will have crossovers only 5 Hz apart!

This is part of his problem. Those Def Tecks pose pretty much an impossible integration problem. Def Tech recommend setting 80 Hz, which only half an octave apart, which is another train wreck. If anything the crossover needs to go down to about 40 Hz to get a decent spread between the crossovers.

The best advice is not to use those bass drivers, and use external subs, but the OP says he does not have room for them.

Actually Dirac probably did set the crossover close, as that is nearly an octave apart, but 40 Hz may well be better.

The issue here is how to make the best of a bad job, and that is never a good place to be.

 

[everettT]

Sorry, but that is the wrong advice. The crossover from the mids in those Def Techs is 125 Hz. If he follows your advice then he will have crossovers only 5 Hz apart!

This is part of his problem. Those Def Tecks pose pretty much an impossible integration problem. Def Tech recommend setting 80 Hz, which only half an octave apart, which is another train wreck. If anything the crossover needs to go down to about 40 Hz to get a decent spread between the crossovers.

The best advice is not to use those bass drivers, and use external subs, but the OP says he does not have room for them.

Actually Dirac probably did set the crossover close, as that is nearly an octave apart, but 40 Hz may well be better.

The issue here is how to make the best of a bad job, and that is never a good place to be.

Didn't see that they were that high, and the 120hz number was generalized not the recommendation as I thought it was the one with the subwoofers built in.

 

[Trebdp83]

I believe the advice by @everettT concerned just the center channel settings. I'd forgotten about the confusing LFE port on the C9080. It's meant for connection to the Center pre out rather than the LFE port of the receiver. Connected with just the speaker terminals, It's meant to be set as Large. Set as Small, and the Center pre out is to be connected to the C9080's LFE port. Keeping a 70Hz crossover setting or going to 80Hz, I'd still play with the EQ for the center channel, bump up the dB a bit and lighten up the bass to try and clear dialogue up. It is a challenging speaker system.

 

[txenakis]

Thanks for all the info everyone, and for taking the time to try to help me out! Really appreciate this.

I reran a Dirac calibration this morning, being more careful about everything, but in the end same result: everything is better with Dirac, the surrounds, the bass, the soundstage, except dialog levels. I tried to bump up the center channel which obviously fixes that, but then I'm having to bump it up by so much (at least 7db) that any pan across the front speakers now feels unnatural (since the center channel is too hot compared to left and right).

I'll have to try to play with it some more. Maybe I need to go into Dirac before exporting the filters and tweak the graphs but I'm not sure what to aim for there.

As for connecting the center channel to the Denon pre out, that's a good idea I'll try that too. I checked and Denon for some reason doesn't offer an option for the center to be set as large (the other speakers can), but I'll keep it at 80hz (small) and connect the pre out and see if it helps.

Once again, thanks for all the help. I know my system and setup is far from ideal but thanks to all the tips I'm making great strides!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Another quick thing in the CC XO. It might be worth lowering the XO on the center, as having it too high could introduce too much subwoofer. I have this with my in ceiling Atmos speakers. They’re crossed a little bit high, and when doing speaker callouts, they sound oddly full. I can’t detect this with normal content however.

 

[TLS Guy]

Didn't see that they were that high, and the 120hz number was generalized not the recommendation as I thought it was the one with the subwoofers built in.

It is, but it is not that simple, the crossover to the mids is passive high pass, but active low pass and the low pass blends with the sub output if you use it.

In my view those speakers are poorly conceived. Unfortunately that is the lot of so many designs, especially more complex offerings.