Question about Dirac & Def Tech BP9000 series

[txenakis]

Hi everyone! Technical question to fellow DT owners: I have a full 7.4.4 BP9000 setup (BP9080 fronts, BP9020 rears, SR9080 surrounds, CS9080 center) which I'm really happy with. This week I'm getting a new AVR, the Denon 3800, and i bought the Dirac Full bandwidth + bass control to (hopefully) bring my system to the next level.

One thing I'm not sure about, when I'll be doing my Dirac calibration, is how to set up the speakers in the Denon for best results.

- Do I follow DT's recommendations and plug them in via speaker wire only and mark them as full range in the AVR? But then I miss out on the 4 independent sub outs that the Denon has, plus Dirac won't be able to do anything regarding bass, since the speakers will take care of it.

- Or do I plug in the LFE cable to each speaker, set them to small, and then let Dirac DLBC do its thing? But then I lose the carefully chosen crossovers that DT has implemented.

- Or do I try to split the difference and plug in the LFE cable but select them as large + LFE in the AVR prior to calibration?

Not sure which of these three setups would give me the best results with calibration. I know I could try all three and compare, but it's a very time consuming process so would love some feedback before i get started.

Thanks!

 

[shadyJ]

I would try each method, and save them as profiles. And then switch between profiles to see what sounds best to you and use that one. That will take a bit more time, but I don't think that anyone will have an easy answer to this scenario since your speakers have an unusual powered bass section and is an uncommon system.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If these DefTech are your only subs, then I say set them up as separate subs (small speakers + subs).

But everyone has a different opinion.

 

[txenakis]

Thanks for the feedback. I will try both and report back on this thread with my findings...

 

[dolynick]

Do I follow DT's recommendations and plug them in via speaker wire only and mark them as full range in the AVR? But then I miss out on the 4 independent sub outs that the Denon has, plus Dirac won't be able to do anything regarding bass, since the speakers will take care of it.

This is not entirely true.

Dirac is going to do correction on whatever measured frequency response data it gets for the fronts, subs included or not. What you're losing by doing this is the ability to route bass from the other speakers (who may not reach down as low) to these subs.

Option 3 would allow you to do both. It's a little bit more odd of a set up and may or may not be more complicated depending on the software (I've never used Dirac myself). If you want to keep crossover as intended by DT, you could try it and always fall back to Option 2 if it does turn out to be too much of a chore. I would think you're going to want to have LFE support for your other channels in the end though, one way or another.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi everyone! Technical question to fellow DT owners: I have a full 7.4.4 BP9000 setup (BP9080 fronts, BP9020 rears, SR9080 surrounds, CS9080 center) which I'm really happy with. This week I'm getting a new AVR, the Denon 3800, and i bought the Dirac Full bandwidth + bass control to (hopefully) bring my system to the next level.

One thing I'm not sure about, when I'll be doing my Dirac calibration, is how to set up the speakers in the Denon for best results.

- Do I follow DT's recommendations and plug them in via speaker wire only and mark them as full range in the AVR? But then I miss out on the 4 independent sub outs that the Denon has, plus Dirac won't be able to do anything regarding bass, since the speakers will take care of it.

- Or do I plug in the LFE cable to each speaker, set them to small, and then let Dirac DLBC do its thing? But then I lose the carefully chosen crossovers that DT has implemented.

- Or do I try to split the difference and plug in the LFE cable but select them as large + LFE in the AVR prior to calibration?

Not sure which of these three setups would give me the best results with calibration. I know I could try all three and compare, but it's a very time consuming process so would love some feedback before i get started.

Thanks!

The problem you will have is that the sub on those is not particularly effective. The F3 of the bass section is 34 Hz. However since it is an ABR design it rolls off 36 db per octave and is 6db down by 30 Hz, and falls off like a cliff.

So you would be well advised to get another sub or two. I'm not sure how those Def techs will cope with the bass of the other speakers. One of the problems with ABR designs is that the driver so quickly becomes decoupled from the box, and you get a rapid rise in large useless cone excursions which can be damaging. So usually you high pass these designs at F3.

 

[txenakis]

Got it thanks. Unfortunately due to room constraints I cant add more subs but I'll do my best to make the ones integrated in the towers sound good.

 

[Trebdp83]

The bi-pole SR9080 surround speakers, and di-poles for that matter, are not meant for use in a Dolby Atmos configured system. Since 7.4.4 was mentioned, I'm assuming you have up firing modules atop the BP9080 and BP9020 speakers. Play with placement and take the SR9080 speakers out and place the BP9020 speakers in the surround positions if possible for a 5.1.4 configuration. You may have an external amp not mentioned as you will need it for a 7.1.4 configuration using the 9 amp X3800H. Set the speakers to Small and play with the Directional Subwoofer setting in the X3800H. Because your subs are built into the speaker cabinets, optimal placement for ear level speakers and atmos modules may not be optimal for subs in a given room but you work with what you have in a system. Don't go crazy with gain levels using those things.

 

[txenakis]

Awesome thanks so much for this. I am indeed using 4 Atmos upfiring modules on the BP9000s and I do have a small external amp for the two extra channels. Your recommendation matches what I was leaning towards, which is to use the LFE input on all four speakers that have integrated woofers and letting Dirac Bass Control do its thing making these sound as seamless as possible. If that doesn't work well then I'll experiment with full range, full range + LFE etc

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Got it thanks. Unfortunately due to room constraints I cant add more subs but I'll do my best to make the ones integrated in the towers sound good.

What matters at the end of the day is that your system sounds great.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Got it thanks. Unfortunately due to room constraints I cant add more subs but I'll do my best to make the ones integrated in the towers sound good.

 

[TLS Guy]

Awesome thanks so much for this. I am indeed using 4 Atmos upfiring modules on the BP9000s and I do have a small external amp for the two extra channels. Your recommendation matches what I was leaning towards, which is to use the LFE input on all four speakers that have integrated woofers and letting Dirac Bass Control do its thing making these sound as seamless as possible. If that doesn't work well then I'll experiment with full range, full range + LFE etc

Those Def Techs are totally unsuitable for anything to do with Atmos. Although up firing modules don't really count for Atmos. That bouncing off the ceiling nonsense, is just that, absolute nonsense.

The rear firing speakers will add to the chaos.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Awesome thanks so much for this. I am indeed using 4 Atmos upfiring modules on the BP9000s and I do have a small external amp for the two extra channels. Your recommendation matches what I was leaning towards, which is to use the LFE input on all four speakers that have integrated woofers and letting Dirac Bass Control do its thing making these sound as seamless as possible. If that doesn't work well then I'll experiment with full range, full range + LFE etc

Just make sure you turn up the speaker channel level for the 4 Atmos modules way up. The salient thing is being able to HEAR them even when all the other speakers/subs are playing.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just make sure you turn up the speaker channel level for the 4 Atmos modules way up. The salient thing is being able to HEAR them even when all the other speakers/subs are playing.

Well done that man! You have extended the Audiophool spectrum from Fantasy to Horrific.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a full 7.4.4 system (BP9080 fronts, BP9020 rears, SR9080 surrounds, CS9080 center) which I'm really happy with.

Those Def Techs are totally unsuitable for anything to do with Atmos. Although up firing modules don't really count for Atmos. That bouncing off the ceiling nonsense, is just that, absolute nonsense.

Well done that man! You have extended the Audiophool spectrum from Fantasy to Horrific.

You need to stop all this negativity.

The OP says he is REALLY HAPPY with the sound of his system and just wondering if he could possibly improve the sound of his system even more.

And what do you do? You throw your usual doom-and-gloom insult about how CRAPY his system really is.

If you don't have anything useful to offer the OP, just let him enjoy his system that he ALREADY spent thousands with his hard-earned money and is REALLY HAPPY with.

 

[Trebdp83]

Awesome thanks so much for this. I am indeed using 4 Atmos upfiring modules on the BP9000s and I do have a small external amp for the two extra channels. Your recommendation matches what I was leaning towards, which is to use the LFE input on all four speakers that have integrated woofers and letting Dirac Bass Control do its thing making these sound as seamless as possible. If that doesn't work well then I'll experiment with full range, full range + LFE etc

Everybody works with what they have in their system, sometimes eliciting hostility in others while they do so. Whatever it is one uses, optimal placement and adjustment are essential. There will be very few here endorsing anything by Tef Tech or Bose but that doesn't mean those with such speakers should be stoned to death.

The Def Tech have special issues simply because the subwoofers are fixed to the speakers and aren't as capable as more robust stand alone powered subs. Using four of them with a different pair of specs and four up firing modules only complicates things more so. I left out the bi-pole surrounds because they should be left out of any system in which Dolby Atmos is going to be used. Look at any Dolby Atmos mixing gear. You will never see a bi-pole or di-pole speaker in any of those rigs. Every speaker in an Atmos configuration is pointed in some degree to the listener with the exception of ceiling mounted speakers that fire straight down and even some of those are angled in their mounts toward the listener.

Some will force a 7.1.4 configuration simply because they have the speakers and amps to do so, but often times, less is more and a 5.1.4 configuration makes more sense in a challenging room. If using 5.1.4, the surrounds should be about 30 degrees back from the sides of the listener.

I wouldn't run the speakers at Full Range at all. Try crossing the 9080s and 9020s at 80Hz and the modules at 120Hz. Run the subs with Directional mode ON. This will keep redirected bass in each of the four areas in their own area without making all four of the subs handle the LFE and redirected bass from ALL of the speakers at once. The Directional Subwoofer setting will solve some problems for many, especially those using multiple subs and very small satellite or bookshelf speakers all the way around including their Mains.

Those are just my own suggestions based on the equipment in use and others will have their own opinions as well. Play with it all, and enjoy it!

 

[TLS Guy]

You need to stop all this negativity.

The OP says he is REALLY HAPPY with the sound of his system and just wondering if he could possibly improve the sound of his system even more.

And what do you do? You throw your usual doom-and-gloom insult about how CRAPY his system really is.

If you don't have anything useful to offer the OP, just let him enjoy his system that he ALREADY spent thousands with his hard-earned money and is REALLY HAPPY with.

Well, I tried to add a little humor to this. I will say there is good engineering and bad engineering. This is bad engineering with no acoustic justification whatsoever.

Often times less is more, and in this case less would definitely be more.

One of the issues is that the whole acoustics of Atmos is complicated and quite unlike anything we have encountered before. That leads to the huge complication that the system is impossible to rationally implement in more situations than not. So the consequence is money grubbers offering product and advice that is totally contrary to the laws of sound propagation. This includes, but not limited, to Atmos Sound bars, speakers firing to the ceiling, and speakers placed way out of spec. It certainly includes advice to blast speakers towards the ceiling in top of those Def Tech speakers. In my book that goes into the horrific category.

I am becoming more and more convinced that many people could make big improvements to their systems with less speakers, and either save a bundle of money, ot getter fewer better speakers. Fewer better speakers ALWAYS bests fewer poorer ones. So if you think I unrepentant, you are correct.

An added problem is all those amps crammed into receivers. So people think they have to use them. What we need is two and three channel high quality AV receivers and AVPs. That would be a huge step forward for most, and massively increase reliability.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, I tried to add a little humor to this. I will say there is good engineering and bad engineering. This is bad engineering with no acoustic justification whatsoever.

Often times less is more, and in this case less would definitely be more.

One of the issues is that the whole acoustics of Atmos is complicated and quite unlike anything we have encountered before. That leads to the huge complication that the system is impossible to rationally implement in more situations than not. So the consequence is money grubbers offering product and advice that is totally contrary to the laws of sound propagation. This includes, but not limited, to Atmos Sound bars, speakers firing to the ceiling, and speakers placed way out of spec. It certainly includes advice to blast speakers towards the ceiling in top of those Def Tech speakers. In my book that goes into the horrific category.

I am becoming more and more convinced that many people could make big improvements to their systems with less speakers, and either save a bundle of money, ot getter fewer better speakers. Fewer better speakers ALWAYS bests fewer poorer ones. So if you think I unrepentant, you are correct.

An added problem is all those amps crammed into receivers. So people think they have to use them. What we need is two and three channel high quality AV receivers and AVPs. That would be a huge step forward for most, and massively increase reliability.

OMG.

Have you heard the expression “There is a a time and place for everything”?

Well this isn’t the time or place for your rant.

This thread is about trying to help someone optimize his sound system that he already REALLY LIKES A LOT.

It’s NOT about which speakers to buy or whether AVP + Amps is better than AVR or whether ATMOS is good or bad.

C’mon man.

Time and Place!

 

[TLS Guy]

OMG.

Have you heard the expression “There is a a time and place for everything”?

Well this isn’t the time or place for your rant.

This thread is about trying to help someone optimize his sound system that he already REALLY LIKES A LOT.

It’s NOT about which speakers to buy or whether AVP + Amps is better than AVR or whether ATMOS is good or bad.

C’mon man.

Time and Place!

You have missed my point completely, that less is more very often and certainly in this case. The bottom line is getting rid of those speakers on top of his Def Techs will be a big upgrade. Advising him to turn them up loud is just nonsensical.

 

[txenakis]

Thanks for all the tips and perspectives folks, it helps a lot. Just as an update I finally hooked up the Denon 3800 and run a first quick Dirac calibration (with Bass control). Result is really good, at least compared to my previous Onkyo 1700 with just regular Dirac. I do have one issue in dialog is not kinda low, but otherwise I'm definitely getting a very immersive, clear and enveloping 3D surround effect, especially when engaging Auro 3D.

It could probably sound a lot better if I got proper speakers, subwoofers and ceiling Atmos speakers, but for what I have and the limitations of my room, I'm very happy with the results. I'll keep playing with Dirac to see if I can get better results.