Pure Direct vs Stereo

[cpp]

Will have to give it a try

 

[cpp]

Will have to give it a try

Just tried this.. Direct, Stereo and Pure Direct on my 4311. Feeding the tunes with my OPPO-95 via HDMI, it's interesting , Stereo is closed-in, lacking in openness and detail or clairty. Direct is really close to Pure Direct in volume and clarity with a spacious feeling which seemed to present a wider soundstage. Using my handy calibrated Radio Shack meter there was only a 1.5db difference in Direct vs Pure Direct. Stereo well, the levels were about 1db difference as compared to either Direct or Pure Direct but as I noted with all the dynamics added by the AVR the stereo mode sounded closed in.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just tried this.. Direct, Stereo and Pure Direct on my 4311. Feeding the tunes with my OPPO-95 via HDMI, it's interesting , Stereo is closed-in, lacking in openness and detail or clairty. Direct is really close to Pure Direct in volume and clarity with a spacious feeling which seemed to present a wider soundstage. Using my handy calibrated Radio Shack meter there was only a 1.5db difference in Direct vs Pure Direct. Stereo well, the levels were about 1db difference as compared to either Direct or Pure Direct but as I noted with all the dynamics added by the AVR the stereo mode sounded closed in.

Processors can be pretty weird. They're almost like Ghosts in the Machines.

So PD/D sounded the best to you?

 

[cpp]

Processors can be pretty weird. They're almost like Ghosts in the Machines.

So PD/D sounded the best to you?

yes PD/D sounded the best to me...

 

[panteragstk]

Just tried this.. Direct, Stereo and Pure Direct on my 4311. Feeding the tunes with my OPPO-95 via HDMI, it's interesting , Stereo is closed-in, lacking in openness and detail or clairty. Direct is really close to Pure Direct in volume and clarity with a spacious feeling which seemed to present a wider soundstage. Using my handy calibrated Radio Shack meter there was only a 1.5db difference in Direct vs Pure Direct. Stereo well, the levels were about 1db difference as compared to either Direct or Pure Direct but as I noted with all the dynamics added by the AVR the stereo mode sounded closed in.

You just described exactly what I hear with my 809. Stereo sounds closed in...sorta. More flat? Not flat as in EQ curve, but flat as in one dimensional. The soundstage seems to just stop. With D/PD that doesn't happen. Pretty cool. Just wish I had subs in D/PD like you denon/marantz guys. I can't help but wonder what the DSP does in stereo with audyssey disabled that makes such a big difference. Very strange.

 

[Cos]

Ok All of this talk about Direct Mode and I will finally test it out on my Integra, the DHC-80.3’s Direct mode, maintains subwoofer filtering but bypasses most other processing, will have to see if I notice a significant difference on my modest setup.

 

[panteragstk]

Ok All of this talk about Direct Mode and I will finally test it out on my Integra, the DHC-80.3’s Direct mode, maintains subwoofer filtering but bypasses most other processing, will have to see if I notice a significant difference on my modest setup.

In Direct Mode you get subs with 2ch material? Interesting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok All of this talk about Direct Mode and I will finally test it out on my Integra, the DHC-80.3’s Direct mode, maintains subwoofer filtering but bypasses most other processing, will have to see if I notice a significant difference on my modest setup.

I thought Integra was like Onkyo?

And Onkyo did not allow subs in PD in 2CH mode?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do think some AVR do a more "pure" job with Stereo than other AVR.

Years ago I had a Pioneer Elite pre-pro that didn't even have PD/D mode. It only had Stereo & a few other DSP modes. I guess the bread & butter was the discrete Dolby Digital decoding. Anyway, the Stereo mode of that $1500 Pre-pro sucked compared to the Direct mode of my $500 HK AVR.

Yes, the sound was closed-in or compressed or something not PURE.

But I think newer AVR have gotten much better & cleaner sound with Stereo compared to D/PD. But it is still not D/PD.

 

[Cos]

In Direct Mode you get subs with 2ch material? Interesting.

There are very few but some small differences between Onkyo and Integra and this is one of the differences

Onkyo has Pure audio Mode
Integra has DSD Processing / Direct Mode

I am not familiar with the Onkyo Pre/Pro so I do not know how it handles its Pure Audio Mode, but my assumption would be that the sub filtering is the difference.

Integra does a terrible job discussing Direct Mode in their manual and most reviews. I discovered what it was more in detail from this review:

Review: Integra DHC-80.3 A/V Controller | Sound and Vision Magazine

 

[Nice shoes]

Sorry to revive old thread, but was just experimenting on my sr6007. To recap the main point of the thread, AcuDefTechGuy called Denon who told him this:

I finally talked to someone at Denon regarding Pure Direct & Direct 2.1.

Pure Direct 2.0/ Direct 2.0 is simply using the DAC to output 20Hz-20kHz signal.

The only extra step Denon has taken w/ PD2.1/D2.1 is using a discrete analog crossover circuit to output 20-80Hz signal.

This discrete analog crossover circuit is not DSP. It is in ANALOG form. It does not need to be converted back to digital (ADC).

So the answer is Denon uses one extra step with a discrete analog crossover circuit to simply output the bass signal to the subwoofer.

Apparently this extra step requires extra money. Onkyo, Yamaha, and most people don't want to implement this extra dedicated circuit.

So Denon claim there is an analogue 80hz subwoofer crossover in some Denon models to allow subwoofer play in Direct/Pure Direct Mode, although the manual says nothing about this. I wanted to test this claim so I put my SR6007 (same as a Denon 2313 or 3313) on pure direct mode and played around with a frequency airplay app to see what the bass management was doing at different frequencies.

Seems that by adjusting the crossover on the main speakers (set to small) while in Direct Mode I'm able to change the amount of bass being sent to the sub. This shouldn't be possible if there's an analogue crossover set at 80hz. So, on the SR6007 at least, I think there is a digital signal being sent for bass management processing.

Either way, there is a noticeable difference between Stereo and Pure Direct. I don't know why or how, but the centre image seems much stronger in Direct Mode. I had to check that my centre speaker wasn't playing! Stereo mode sounds like 2 separate speakers playing. I've heard others say the same thing and I was skeptical because there's no logical reason for it, but there it is.

 

[RichB]

On the Marantz AV8801, the LFE+Main does not work with the 7.1 analog input but does work with the XLR stereo analog inputs.
Also, the XLR inputs can be fully processed.

This is a good indication that the XLR input is digitized.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The manual clearly states that Direct Mode/ Pure Direct bypasses the tone control circuit.

So even with the subwoofers engaged (LFE + Main) in Pure Direct mode, the Tone Control circuit is still bypassed.

It doesn't say how they accomplish that.

Most people figure that with LFE/Sub engaged, the Tone Control circuit is not bypassed. But the manual clearly states that in Direct/Pure Direct mode, the tone circuit is bypassed.

So I guess the whole original discussion was how can tone control circuit be bypassed in Direct/Pure Mode if it allows the use of Subwoofers?

 

[RichB]

^^^
I have the same impression of Direct and Pure Direct sounding better than Stereo mode and that may be the tone control.
It is interesting that in the digital world, additional processing can change the sound even when it should be flat.

I wish more attention was paid to that by reviewers.
Why shouldn't these units sound that same in PD versus stereo mode with a digital source?

I think it is safe to say in the Marantz AV8801 (and probably others) that a PD + LFE works in the digital domain since it does not work on the 7.1 analog inputs (that are not digitized).
Even so, I find PD versus PD + LFE sound very similar with the sub off, so I do not think there is a downside to using it.

- Rich

 

[Shockvvave]

Is there any way to use pd/2.2 and d/2.1 on the marantz av8003? I to enjoy pure modes over stereo. But really want that .1 added! Thank you.

 

[TLS Guy]

Is there any way to use pd/2.2 and d/2.1 on the marantz av8003? I to enjoy pure modes over stereo. But really want that .1 added! Thank you.

No and yes. You have to go it in the analog domain, which means providing your own crossover and a switch. That is what I do.

 

[Shockvvave]

Not exactly sure what your are describing. What is the product you are using? And thank you for the reply.

 

[Shockvvave]

You have a really nice system! The av8801 I am assuming you are able to do 2.1 direct.

 

[Adam]

Hi, Shockvvave, and welcome to the forum!

What he's getting at is that the Source Direct and Pure Direct modes on the 8803 bypass the bass management. For some source signals, the subwoofer is still used, while for others it is not (which are detailed on page 41 of the owner's manual). So, you'll get the .1, but the Marantz isn't cutting off the lower frequencies from the main speakers - which means that you'll get some overlap in the frequencies produced by the speakers and those produced by the sub...unless you handle that crossover and bass management outside of the Marantz.

 

[Shockvvave]

Hey thank you, seems like a good site.

Which sources in p and pd allow lfe to sub? Trying to learn and understand all this. I looked on page 41 and don't see what you describe.