PSB Image T6 vs B&W 683 vs used Sonus Faber Toy Towers

[nibhaz]

Troll alert

But in all honesty, the Denon receivers suck. My recommendation is Onkyo. They all have discrete output stages and will sound better. Plus, if you're building a home theater, you must have a THX receiver. It's amazing what the THX algorithms can do for movies. This is how 99.99% of all movies were mixed in a studio. It's a tremendous difference what the processor does to the soundtrack. If you want to hear how the movie was originally mixed, forget the Denon.

This is just pure BS, so just stop spreading it as is stinks.

Denon has a long history of producing solid preforming products and if you think THX processing makes that big of a difference then you've been drinking some serious marketing kool-aid.


For full disclosure I do use THX Processing in my unit, but it is certainly not a requirement nor should it be top on someone's requirements when selecting a competent AV Receiver.

 

[PENG]

Not altogether true, at least not all the time:

This isn't to say that Denon makes junk (far from it IMO), but at least from my standpoint, I do take some solace in knowing that THX does certify my TX-SR707 to meet certain performance metrics.

I can't argue with those graphs but I couldn't help but wonder if there might have been some peculiarities that we don't know about. The thing is, over the years I have seen more than once such seemingly inexplicable bench tests results of different models of different brands being published by AV magazines. So learnt not to pass judgment of a particular brand base on one of even more bench test results. As an example, if you take a look of the bench test results of the 2309, the lower and older (presumably by 1 year) model, by the same people (hometheaterhifi.com) you will see that the graphs look a lot more like, or better than the Onkyo 706 into a 4 ohm load.

 

[Steve81]

I can't argue with those graphs but I couldn't help but wonder if there might have been some peculiarities that we don't know about. The thing is, over the years I have seen more than once such seemingly inexplicable bench tests results of different models of different brands being published by AV magazines. So learnt not to pass judgment of a particular brand base on one of even more bench test results. As an example, if you take a look of the bench test results of the 2309, the lower and older (presumably by 1 year) model, by the same people (hometheaterhifi.com) you will see that the graphs look a lot more like, or better than the Onkyo 706 into a 4 ohm load.

I understand what you're saying; I thought this result rather interesting too when I first saw it; quite good for under $500 at the time :

quite good even next to the Emo XPA-2

Of course, after seeing all the potential variation in measured performance, that's why I value THX certs: it's a guaranteed minimum level of performance, barring any manufacturing defects.

 

[Steve81]

I suppose it's also worth noting that for an OCD type like myself, good performance in battery objective measurements ala an AH review would fit the bill as well.

 

[Send Margaritas]

The measured data is not an opinion though... If you use the same driver, a ported/passive radiator sub will always outperform a sealed sub in extension and distortion. And not just by little, but by a significant amount. Just very simple physics.

I'm no expert, but I find it very hard to believe every sub driver is better suited to a ported (or PR) design. Don't some benefit from the air pressure in a sealed design helping the cone spring back?

Any input from folks that have experience or background designing speakers? TLS Guy? Someone with Bassbox Pro?

I hesitate to raise such a question, since ridikas often seems to take extreme controversial positions.

 

[mtal]

Thanks for all the posts. I'll look into THX stuff but it sounds like I can't go wrong with either upper Denon or NAD.

I'm 98% decided on getting the used Synchrony Two's but the fact that it has rear ports is preventing me from purchasing them. The towers will need to be close to the wall and I'm afraid if I position them that way, the extra money I'm paying for them will have gone to waste. $1600 for the pair of Synchronies vs $800 to $1000 for the T6's which are front ported.

Any thoughts?

I'm leaning towards a Hsu VTF3-Mk4 for a sub. However the small form factor of the SVS sb12-nsd is an advantage. In terms of bass, I like tight and subtle, not bone rattling for music....for movies, that's another story.

I'm hoping to audition the Synchrony Twos but I may not have time and I'm itching to get some speakers! Your input is welcome!

 

[Alex2507]

I'm no expert, but I find it very hard to believe every sub driver is better suited to a ported (or PR) design. Don't some benefit from the air pressure in a sealed design helping the cone spring back?

Any input from folks that have experience or background designing speakers? TLS Guy? Someone with Bassbox Pro?

I hesitate to raise such a question, since ridikas often seems to take extreme controversial positions.

When somebody has that many red chicklets how can you doubt?

There's a certain number/parameter that determines whether a sub will be a better performer as sealed or ported.

They won't ban him so his BS just continues. Oh well ...

 

[Steve81]

When somebody has that many red chicklets how can you doubt?

I thought it was mint versus cherry flavor???

There's a certain number/parameter that determines whether a sub will be a better performer as sealed or ported.

The T/S parameters.

Thiele/Small - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Send Margaritas]

....(snipped point I understood)...

There's a certain number/parameter that determines whether a sub will be a better performer as sealed or ported.

(snipped point I didn't understand )

That is my understanding too. I built 3 subs (love 'em) , but relied on Parts Express folks, and they turned out well. I know some of the parameters, but not all, and have seen the demos of the modeling software. I'm just not sure which ones were key to that decision. If memory serves, I thought it was a measurement of how firm the spider/suspension of the driver was. I don't want to derail the thread, but if anybody knows, I'd appreciate their insight.

Thanks Alex.

 

[Send Margaritas]

...

The T/S parameters.

Thiele/Small - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those look to include the params I thought to indicate wether the drivers were best suited for sealed or ported. But I'm unsure which were key

Q(ms) and R(ms)? I think I need to add a book on speaker design to my xmas list. (It's fun stuff, DIY).

Thanks Steve.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can't argue with those graphs but I couldn't help but wonder if there might have been some peculiarities that we don't know about. The thing is, over the years I have seen more than once such seemingly inexplicable bench tests results of different models of different brands being published by AV magazines. So learnt not to pass judgment of a particular brand base on one of even more bench test results. As an example, if you take a look of the bench test results of the 2309, the lower and older (presumably by 1 year) model, by the same people (hometheaterhifi.com) you will see that the graphs look a lot more like, or better than the Onkyo 706 into a 4 ohm load.

Exactly. We've seen it once too many times how magazines would screw up on measurements.

 

[Steve81]

Exactly. We've seen it once too many times how magazines would screw up on measurements.

While errors are of course always a possibility, I'd have to wonder why Denon wouldn't raise a stink to get the receiver retested or at the very least have some mfr comments. I mean, looking at that graph would definitely plant some doubts in my mind if I were considering the 3310. Of course, if you're not an OCD freak like me, you could always just use your ears and be satisfied with what you hear.

 

[Steve81]

Those look to include the params I thought to indicate wether the drivers were best suited for sealed or ported. But I'm unsure which were key

Q(ms) and R(ms)? I think I need to add a book on speaker design to my xmas list. (It's fun stuff, DIY).

Thanks Steve.

EBP which is a function of Fs and Qes
T/S Parameters explained

Not a diyer myself, but I do find learning about this stuff interesting.

 

[Send Margaritas]

EBP which is a function of Fs and Qes
T/S Parameters explained

Not a diyer myself, but I do find learning about this stuff interesting.

Excellent. Exactly what I was looking for at this point. TYVM! It makes reading them as simple as tire ratings.

 

[Docks]

Did we even help the op?

 

[mtal]

No help with this last bit of technical stuff that I don't get.

I auditioned the Synchrony Two's but it was with a Marantz receiver in an open area, no room treatment. The Image T's were with a NAD 757 and in a treated room. I'm not sure if I could hear the difference.

But if you guys say the Synchrony Two are much better, I'll take your word for it and buy them used for $1600 shipped.

The final issue with Synchrony Two and Image T6 is that in my room, the T6's can be right next to the wall because they are front ported. How much room do I need for the rear-ported Synchronies?

I'm still deciding on NAD vs Denon.

I've got to decide on the Synchrony Twos today.

Thanks again!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No help with this last bit of technical stuff that I don't get.

I auditioned the Synchrony Two's but it was with a Marantz receiver in an open area, no room treatment. The Image T's were with a NAD 757 and in a treated room. I'm not sure if I could hear the difference.

But if you guys say the Synchrony Two are much better, I'll take your word for it and buy them used for $1600 shipped.

The final issue with Synchrony Two and Image T6 is that in my room, the T6's can be right next to the wall because they are front ported. How much room do I need for the rear-ported Synchronies?

I'm still deciding on NAD vs Denon.

I've got to decide on the Synchrony Twos today.

Thanks again!

I wouldn't say the difference is "significant" between the T6 vs Synchrony2 or any difference between NAD vs Denon. The law of diminishing returns kicks into high gear the minute you enter the audio world. There's a lot of claims about how so and so speakers sound so much better. But the fact is, all those speakers were in different rooms, different times, different setups, etc.

The fact is, YOU could not tell the difference between the T6 & S2. Trust your ears (and your wallet ).

If all you care about is SQ and absolutely NOTHING else, then just get the T6 and whichever is cheaper between Denon & NAD and save money.

 

[mtal]

Although I didn't hear much difference at the store, I think it was because of two totally different setups. After reading so many reviews and opinions, I do believe there will be significant improvement in sound between the T6 and S2 in an A/B comparison and am okay paying $1600 for the S2s vs $1100 for new T6s.

I would like to build up to a 5.1 system in the near future. Would an Image C5 center channel be okay with Synchrony Two (S2) towers? The synchrony center is another expensive investment. I'm already paying more for the S2 towers rather than the Image T6. The difference in the two centers is that the Image uses a clay/ceramic filled polypropylene cone for the woofer and the S2 center uses a dual layer fiberglass natural fiber cone. The tweeters are the same 1" titanium dome.

The surrounds will have to be in ceiling speakers.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Although I didn't hear much difference at the store, I think it was because of two totally different setups. After reading so many reviews and opinions, I do believe there will be significant improvement in sound between the T6 and S2 in an A/B comparison and am okay paying $1600 for the S2s vs $1100 for new T6s.

I would like to build up to a 5.1 system in the near future. Would an Image C5 center channel be okay with Synchrony Two (S2) towers? The synchrony center is another expensive investment. I'm already paying more for the S2 towers rather than the Image T6. The difference in the two centers is that the Image uses a clay/ceramic filled polypropylene cone for the woofer and the S2 center uses a dual layer fiberglass natural fiber cone. The tweeters are the same 1" titanium dome.

The surrounds will have to be in ceiling speakers.

Thanks for your feedback.

The Synchrony has that "flagship" prestige.

I would get two Synchrony2 Towers + one Synchrony2B Bookshelf as a Center for $550:

PSB Synchrony Two B*Bookshelf Speaker

 

[mtal]

Great idea on the Synchrony Two B bookshelf. If I did that, could I place it on it's side or would I need to try to turn the tweeter 90 degrees (and is that even possible)?