PSB Image T6 vs B&W 683 vs used Sonus Faber Toy Towers

[3db]

+1 on Synchrony Two.

But in all honesty, the Denon receivers suck. My recommendation is Onkyo. They all have discrete output stages and will sound better. Plus, if you're building a home theater, you must have a THX receiver. It's amazing what the THX algorithms can do for movies. This is how 99.99% of all movies were mixed in a studio. It's a tremendous difference what the processor does to the soundtrack. If you want to hear how the movie was originally mixed, forget the Denon.

You are full of disinformation. All mid level and up models by Denon/Yamaha/anything all have discrete amplifiers in them. That's just a bunch of bunk. I would personally stay as far away from Onkyo as possible as they are prone to premature failure due sloppy thermal analysis and their tendency to cook other components due to excessive heat build up. They also have one of the worst customer support of all of them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But in all honesty, the Denon receivers suck. My recommendation is Onkyo. They all have discrete output stages and will sound better. Plus, if you're building a home theater, you must have a THX receiver. It's amazing what the THX algorithms can do for movies. This is how 99.99% of all movies were mixed in a studio. It's a tremendous difference what the processor does to the soundtrack. If you want to hear how the movie was originally mixed, forget the Denon.

I am speechless.

Do the Onkyos measure better than Denon or any other receiver? No!

The Onkyo will sound like Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, HK, Marantz, etc, if it is set up the exact same way.

To the OP: look for features, reliability history, customer service. You will not hear the difference in SQ.

 

[ridikas]

I'm not full of disinformation, nor do I care if Onkyo measures better than Denon, etc. Those differences will be small when everything is taken into consideration.

A THX receiver is not just rated to put out a certain amount of power. A THX receiver has the THX algorithms. They make a HUGE difference, more so than any distortion, frequency, and power measurements. The THX algorithms EQ the signal in a major way, they add timber, etc.

ALL high budget movies were mixed with these THX algorithms. As a matter of fact, 99.99% (within the past 20 years) of ALL movies have been mixed using THX algorithms. Disney, Fox, Lucasfilm, Rydstrom, and the list goes on and on.

If you're watching movies without a THX processor, than you're not hearing them anywhere even close to how they were mixed at the studio.

It surprises me, that well established members, on a very technical forum would argue against this. You all seek hundreds of tests and measurements, high quality parts, yet without the THX algorithms, when it comes to movies, everything else becomes 100% meaningless.

What's the point of having state of the art equipment if you cannot listen to the original artist's intent?

 

[3db]

I'm not full of disinformation, nor do I care if Onkyo measures better than Denon, etc. Those differences will be small when everything is taken into consideration.

A THX receiver is not just rated to put out a certain amount of power. A THX receiver has the THX algorithms. They make a HUGE difference, more so than any distortion, frequency, and power measurements. The THX algorithms EQ the signal in a major way, they add timber, etc.

ALL high budget movies were mixed with these THX algorithms. As a matter of fact, 99.99% (within the past 20 years) of ALL movies have been mixed using THX algorithms. Disney, Fox, Lucasfilm, Rydstrom, and the list goes on and on.

If you're watching movies without a THX processor, than you're not hearing them anywhere even close to how they were mixed at the studio.

It surprises me, that well established members, on a very technical forum would argue against this. You all seek hundreds of tests and measurements, high quality parts, yet without the THX algorithms, when it comes to movies, everything else becomes 100% meaningless.

What's the point of having state of the art equipment if you cannot listen to the original artist's intent?

Like I said, crack open a cover of a Yamaha, Denon, Marantz mid to up level AVR and just look at those discrete components which you incorrectly imply that only Onkyo has.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not full of disinformation, nor do I care if Onkyo measures better than Denon, etc. Those differences will be small when everything is taken into consideration.

A THX receiver is not just rated to put out a certain amount of power. A THX receiver has the THX algorithms. They make a HUGE difference, more so than any distortion, frequency, and power measurements. The THX algorithms EQ the signal in a major way, they add timber, etc.

ALL high budget movies were mixed with these THX algorithms. As a matter of fact, 99.99% (within the past 20 years) of ALL movies have been mixed using THX algorithms. Disney, Fox, Lucasfilm, Rydstrom, and the list goes on and on.

If you're watching movies without a THX processor, than you're not hearing them anywhere even close to how they were mixed at the studio.

It surprises me, that well established members, on a very technical forum would argue against this. You all seek hundreds of tests and measurements, high quality parts, yet without the THX algorithms, when it comes to movies, everything else becomes 100% meaningless.

What's the point of having state of the art equipment if you cannot listen to the original artist's intent?

I'm sure EVERYONE here thinks you know more than Gene regarding THX and Denon.

NOT.

What a joke.

My Denon AVP-A1HDCI has THX. I prefer NOT to use THX. But, of course, like you said, Denon just sucks.

 

[ridikas]

I'm sure EVERYONE here thinks you know more than Gene regarding THX.

NOT.

What a joke.

And what are Gene's thoughts on the THX algorithms in A/V receivers?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like I said, crack open a cover of a Yamaha, Denon, Marantz mid to up level AVR and just look at those discrete components which you incorrectly imply that only Onkyo has.

Maybe others like PENG, GranteedEV, or even Gene may respond to his remarks.

OTOH, maybe they just did a facepalm

and moved right along.

 

[ridikas]

My Denon AVP-A1HDCI has THX. I prefer NOT to use THX. But, of course, like you said, Denon just sucks.

Your Denon is $6000+. What would that have to do with what the OP asked? How would that be a recommendation for him? How would that be helpful? Denon doesn't make a THX receiver anywhere near OP's budget. Nor does Marantz, or Yamaha, etc.

If you don't like THX then that is YOUR opinion. A receiver with THX processing capabilities can significantly more faithfully reproduce the movie's soundtrack, that is a fact. We at Audioholics try to be more objective than subjective. Correct?

 

[shadyJ]

Do you have a link that discusses these THX algorithms? I haven't heard of this.

 

[ridikas]

Do you have a link that discusses these THX algorithms? I haven't heard of this.

Just do a quick Google, it's everywhere. The THX DSP is pre-programmed with their proprietary algorithms. Which add all sorts of effects (thousands) to the soundtrack, like timber. In addition to having the receivers tested, that is what these manufacturers are paying the license for.

When a studio mixes the soundtrack, the engineer uses a THX based DSP. In order to hear what was mixed at home (or at a theater), the soundtrack MUST be played back via DSP pre-loaded with these THX algorithms. And the differences are literally HUGE.

What's the point of spending thousands of dollars on a system, if you can't even hear what the artist originally intended during the mix?

 

[Steve81]

Do the Onkyos measure better than Denon or any other receiver? No!

Not altogether true, at least not all the time:

This isn't to say that Denon makes junk (far from it IMO), but at least from my standpoint, I do take some solace in knowing that THX does certify my TX-SR707 to meet certain performance metrics.

 

[ridikas]

This isn't to say that Denon makes junk (far from it IMO), but at least from my standpoint, I do take some solace in knowing that THX does certify my TX-SR707 to meet certain performance metrics that guarantee basic quality.

Thank you. This is exactly how I see it too. But in addition, with THX, you're getting the DSP pre-loaded with their algorithms. Which makes a world of difference and is the ONLY way to hear what the mixing engineer intended.

 

[Steve81]

Just for general informative purposes, everything you ever wanted to know about THX:

THX-Certification: What It Means and How to Use It

 

[shadyJ]

Just do a quick Google, it's everywhere. The THX DSP is pre-programmed with their proprietary algorithms. Which add all sorts of effects (thousands) to the soundtrack, like timber. In addition to having the receivers tested, that is what these manufacturers are paying the license for.

When a studio mixes the soundtrack, the engineer uses a THX based DSP. In order to hear what was mixed at home (or at a theater), the soundtrack MUST be played back via DSP pre-loaded with these THX algorithms. And the differences are literally HUGE.

What's the point of spending thousands of dollars on a system, if you can't even hear what the artist originally intended during the mix?

What I don't understand is why would you want a processor to add anything if you intend to hear the soundtrack as faithfully as possible? I know about the THX DSP effects, but I wouldn't think to use them for a neutral playback of the recording. Are you saying there are soundtracks out there that are mixed to be used with these modes?

 

[ridikas]

What I don't understand is why would you want a processor to add anything if you intend to hear the soundtrack as faithfully as possible? I know about the THX DSP effects, but I wouldn't think to use them for a neutral playback of the recording. Are you saying there are soundtracks out there that are mixed to be used with these modes?

Yes, virtually ALL big budget movies of the past 20 years need these effects in order to sound faithful and how they were originally mixed in the studio. The THX DSP effects were used during the mix. Everything from all the major studios (like Disney, Fox, etc.), Spielberg, Cameron, Lucas, Rydstrom, etc. need the THX algorithms to sound faithful. I cannot think of a single established studio which doesn't use THX for mixing the soundtracks.

And this also applies to the old movies as well (before the THX standard), because all of them have been remixed from original elements into 2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc. in a THX studio for new DIs, re-releases, DVD, Blu-ray, whatever.

It's very simple... If you're watching a movie at home without a THX DSP, the chances are 99.99% that what you're hearing is not faithful to the original mix.

 

[3db]

Thank you. This is exactly how I see it too. But in addition, with THX, you're getting the DSP pre-loaded with their algorithms. Which makes a world of difference and is the ONLY way to hear what the mixing engineer intended.

I find it very amusing that you keep side stepping the following:
a) All mid level and up models use discrete amplfication which you falsely implied that Onkyo is the only one that does this.
b) Sloppy thermal analysis done by Onkyo has led to many premature heat related failures of past models, far more than any other company. New models have yet to be seen whether or not they fixed their mistake.
c) One of the worst customer support satisfaction out there by far.

Until the new models have been around for a while and they fix their abmissal customer support, I don't know how you could recommend Onkyo.

I also could give a rat's A?? about THX. Its just you side stepping a pile of your own dung to avoid being called on disinformation.

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, virtually ALL big budget movies of the past 20 years need these effects in order to sound faithful and how they were originally mixed in the studio. The THX DSP effects were used during the mix. Everything from all the major studios (like Disney, Fox, etc.), Spielberg, Cameron, Lucas, Rydstrom, etc. need the THX algorithms to sound faithful. I cannot think of a single established studio which doesn't use THX for mixing the soundtracks.

And this also applies to the old movies as well (before the THX standard), because all of them have been remixed from original elements into 2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc. in a THX studio for new DIs, re-releases, DVD, Blu-ray, whatever.

It's very simple... If you're watching a movie at home without a THX DSP, the chances are 99.99% that what you're hearing is not faithful to the original mix.

I've never heard of this. As far as I can tell, THX algorithms are certain processes done by the receiver that may improve sound in generic room environments, both in the article steve linked to and others like this one. Outside of that all I can see about THX is that it is merely a set of performance standards. I can't find anything that says if you are not listening to a THX mastered soundtrack on a non-THX certified processors that you will somehow miss something. Nothing on THX's own website supports your claim.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have powered my Phil3 (4 ohm, 85dB/2.83V/m) with both the Denon 3310 and 3312 for months in my 18' x 20' x 12' room. I've never had an issue with distortion. They sound just as great as the ATI AT2004 amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Again, I've used the THX modes on my Denon AVP-A1HDCI. It sounds like DSP. It sucks. I prefer my sound to be discrete DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD, not some THX DSP post processing algorithm crap.

 

[Steve81]

I have powered my Phil3 (4 ohm, 85dB/2.83V/m) with both the Denon 3310 and 3312 for months in my 18' x 20' x 12' room. I've never had an issue with distortion. They sound just as great as the ATI AT2004 amp.

It's quite possible that you wouldn't notice a thing depending on various and sundry factors, in particular the actual impedance curve and the listening levels. Of course, it's not exactly a great showing for the Denon given that it costs significantly more than the Onkyo and at least in terms of driving a 4 ohm load, apparently performs considerably worse.