PSA subwoofers. I talked with Tom

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Let me ask you, and others, these speakers have been out for a long time now, why hasn't anyone done measurements on them? If everyone is saying it should be a 3rd party independent set of tests and measurements then that's not PSA fault no one has done that?
Why hasn't someone with the equipment and that is trusted by all of us like Erin from Erin's corner done just that?
Fair play, and good point. Has anyone contacted Tom for a review sample? I have no idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not beating him up. Innocent until proven guilty and all. I'm just being a skeptic. ;)
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Alot of those 3rd party reviews are either free products or people trying to make a name for themselves on youtube. You have to start somewhere why not start with a well known product that will get you hits. Product reviews like this need to be taken with a grain of salt.
I guess I should've been more clear: I meant specifically established and trusted review sites, like AH, Sound Vision, and Josh Ricci's data-bass.
 
K

kxthor

Junior Audioholic
I guess I should've been more clear: I meant specifically established and trusted review sites, like AH, Sound Vision, and Josh Ricci's data-bass.
Sorry man, I have not been in the game long enough to know everything yet. I just thought you meant youtubers.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
One of the reasons is probably that Tom isnt going to send over one of his units for free. As I gather he sells them as fast as he can make them so there is no reason to send one for review. So with that being said, who would pay for the item and what would happen to it after the review was done?
Exactly, he isn't sending speakers out for free just for reviews. If someone cares enough they will buy a set and do the tests. I don't think PSA/Tom cares otherwise.
He is a very honest guy. I've had dozens, yes dozens of emails with him discussing other speakers and suggestions for speakers that are very, very inexpensive, cheaper than even I would go for speakers where he complimented them. From gigantic corporations too.
He really had no reason to suggest those speakers or carry on a conversation that would not lead to sale of his own speakers from his own company.
By the way he has said nice things about SVS too.

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K

kxthor

Junior Audioholic
Fair play, and good point. Has anyone contacted Tom for a review sample? I have no idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not beating him up. Innocent until proven guilty and all. I'm just being a skeptic. ;)
I don't think he would. I guess it never hurts to ask. If I were in his shoes though I don't think I would either.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I don't think he would. I guess it never hurts to ask. If I were in his shoes though I don't think I would either.
When you are selling everything out and having a hard time fulfilling orders for paying customers I think it's tough to justify sending out a free pair just for a review or testing. If someone cared enough they would but a pair and do testing.
My testing was with my ears and I was simply floored. I don't have a ton of experience with high end speakers buy I did have good ones from Def Tech before having a family and mortgage. I had Def Tech 7002s that were pretty high end, at least for me they were. PSA was better by miles and more dynamic by light years and cost less from a guy in Ohio.

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K

kxthor

Junior Audioholic
When you are selling everything out and having a hard time fulfilling orders for paying customers I think it's tough to justify sending out a free pair just for a review or testing. If someone cared enough they would but a pair and do testing.
My testing was with my ears and I was simply floored. I don't have a ton of experience with high end speakers buy I did have good ones from Def Tech before having a family and mortgage. I had Def Tech 7002s that were pretty high end, at least for me they were. PSA was better by miles and more dynamic by light years and cost less from a guy in Ohio.

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Def tech uses normal tweeters, is that correct? Tom's speakers are horn loaded I believe. I think horn loaded speakers will always sound more exciting. I think this is why klipsch and JBL all have such cult followings.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Def tech uses normal tweeters, is that correct? Tom's speakers are horn loaded I believe. I think horn loaded speakers will always sound more exciting. I think this is why klipsch and JBL all have such cult followings.
Yes Def Tech uses regular tweeters. I always though they were very good, very nice, very revealing until I heard PSA. The word that keeps coming up is dynamic. I wish I could afford them and they didn't look so, ya know, like they do.

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H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
No measurements here but I review of sorts. Not the great, in depth review but a review.


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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Hello you mention using pro drivers, is that unique to PSA subs? For my learning I'm curious if they use something different than others do and what impact that might have. Thanks
I am not too aware of any other company using Pro Subwoofer Drivers in their Subwoofers (outside of those built for the pro market, of course). This has been a relatively recent trend in the market, as I understand it.
The DIY community has been playing with this setup, and it is hard to tell if PSA was at the forefront of that or vise versa.
Pro Drivers from B&C, La Voce and Eminence seem to be the top candidates for use in these builds. They are not cheap, either, with the 21” B&C and Eminence Drivers retailing over $600 each.
The Eminence NSW seems to be the Driver of choice for many as it is the most capable in terms of its Motor and Suspension being able to withstand the excursion required to perform so far below its resonant frequency. It can also handle more power, which is very important for being able to perform below its Fs.
GSG Audio is selling several of the Pro Drivers and have ‘tuned their builds’ to excel with these Drivers. Marty builds are the most lenient and can work well with a very wide range of Drivers from Pro to Home Audio product. On the other hand, the Devastator builds, originally designed by John of GSG, require these Pro Drivers to operate properly.
Even in those Subwoofers, you can see clearly the strengths of the Pro Driver: they excel at Mid Bass production and are highly efficient above the Driver’s Fs, however as you go deeper excursion and the lack of efficiency quickly become limiting factors for most of the Drivers.
Researching the Devs, you can easily see their modeled responses dropping hard below Driver Resonance. Everything that Driver can give below that point is because their Power Handling.
Where the commonly used La Voce and B&C are rated for 1000w/2000w peak, that Eminence NSW is rated for 2000/4000w.
It is truly a beast mode driver that can perform low, as long as you can keep dumping power into it.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I am not too aware of any other company using Pro Subwoofer Drivers in their Subwoofers (outside of those built for the pro market, of course). This has been a relatively recent trend in the market, as I understand it.
The DIY community has been playing with this setup, and it is hard to tell if PSA was at the forefront of that or vise versa.
Pro Drivers from B&C, La Voce and Eminence seem to be the top candidates for use in these builds. They are not cheap, either, with the 21” B&C and Eminence Drivers retailing over $600 each.
The Eminence NSW seems to be the Driver of choice for many as it is the most capable in terms of its Motor and Suspension being able to withstand the excursion required to perform so far below its resonant frequency. It can also handle more power, which is very important for being able to perform below its Fs.
GSG Audio is selling several of the Pro Drivers and have ‘tuned their builds’ to excel with these Drivers. Marty builds are the most lenient and can work well with a very wide range of Drivers from Pro to Home Audio product. On the other hand, the Devastator builds, originally designed by John of GSG, require these Pro Drivers to operate properly.
Even in those Subwoofers, you can see clearly the strengths of the Pro Driver: they excel at Mid Bass production and are highly efficient above the Driver’s Fs, however as you go deeper excursion and the lack of efficiency quickly become limiting factors for most of the Drivers.
Researching the Devs, you can easily see their modeled responses dropping hard below Driver Resonance. Everything that Driver can give below that point is because their Power Handling.
Where the commonly used La Voce and B&C are rated for 1000w/2000w peak, that Eminence NSW is rated for 2000/4000w.
It is truly a beast mode driver that can perform low, as long as you can keep dumping power into it.
One other thought here:
For people that know Speaker Design, using the Pro Drivers is a bit controversial because there are some rule… defying attributes. These Drivers were not really meant for this usage: it is brute force alone that makes these drivers perform at Home Theater level demands.

This is why I want to see somebody test these. An impartial experienced reviewer with the knowledge and experience to perform and publish the results will go a long way to dispelling the myth around this concept. ;)

To those that think this is unfair… to expect a company to send a product out for a third party review for an unadulterated airing of the laundry… clean, dirty, or whatever, I say get over it.
If a company won’t let their product be tested, much less won’t freely support such a practice, what are they afraid of?
You say they can’t keep them in stock without testing, when testing could either refute their efficacy or reinforce their prowess and further drive business to new heights.
Frankly, I won’t trust the guy that won’t send his product out! And when I’m considering dropping $2k or more, I want to know what I’m getting.
No, a test won’t tell you how it will perform in your home, but you can absolutely know without a doubt if the product is designed well. And that is what we are talking about. If it is a good design and you can see the metrics side by side, apples to apples, with other Subs commonly lauded for their cost and performance, we the consumers can decide for ourselves whether to invest in that product or take our business elsewhere.
The last time I saw a blow up of somebody not wanting measurements posted of their gear was Tekton Design and the blowup with New Record Day. That was ugly and I don’t think anybody but them really knows the true story, however, Eric’s Speakers will forever be tainted in my mind for his steadfast refusal to allow anybody to test them.
Conversely, I know another Speaker designer that paid out of pocket to have his Speaker tested at the NRC is Canada because he understood the importance of getting that impartial third party proof of what his design is capable of.

All I want is Tom to send a Sub to a good review site, let the put it through its paces, and return it. He can still sell it as an outlet, and still make money on that unit. He proves the efficacy of his design. He makes more money still

In this business, consumer education is important. Without it… you may as well be selling cables with battery packs.
*shrugs
 
vader540is

vader540is

Full Audioholic
Alot of those 3rd party reviews are either free products or people trying to make a name for themselves on youtube. You have to start somewhere why not start with a well known product that will get you hits. Product reviews like this need to be taken with a grain of salt.
That is correct I have a friend in the audio business -I will not mention his name or the company he works for -and they only publish reviews on products where they can get affiliate links... hence making a profit off the sales and drumming up marketing for the product , which makes sense, they are business trying to make $$$.
 
vader540is

vader540is

Full Audioholic
Fair play, and good point. Has anyone contacted Tom for a review sample? I have no idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not beating him up. Innocent until proven guilty and all. I'm just being a skeptic. ;)
Youthman did.


I would take his channel as pure entertainment IMHO

I do respect Youthman, he did review a JTR 1200xs subs and he left audy on with the settings for his PB16 and it really messed everything up.

Later on he deleted that video and published an update and apologizing for his mistake.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Youthman did.


I would take his channel as pure entertainment IMHO

I do respect Youthman, he did review a JTR 1200xs subs and he left audy on with the settings for his PB16 and it really messed everything up.

Later on he deleted that video and published an update and apologizing for his mistake.
Youthman is a really nice guy, but like you said, more entertaining than detailed or analytical. He's got a huge bias for Klipsch.

As for Tom and PSA, I don't think anyone here is suggesting he's dishonest or that his products are bad, but I don't think it's unjustified or unfair to ask why there haven't been any detailed reviews with measurements.

I've brought up the same questions over on the Ascend forums about my very own beloved Sierra ribbon towers and never really got a satisfactory reply... Turns out they are the best sounding speakers I've had in my room, but if I'm being honest it has always bugged me a little that reviews are rare, and 3rd party measurements for his high end speakers are virtually nonexistent. As far as I know, this is the only 3rd party review by an audio site I know of, and this is with the NrT tweets, not the RAALs, and no measurements...

 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Youthman is a really nice guy, but like you said, more entertaining than detailed or analytical. He's got a huge bias for Klipsch.

As for Tom and PSA, I don't think anyone here is suggesting he's dishonest or that his products are bad, but I don't think it's unjustified or unfair to ask why there haven't been any detailed reviews with measurements.

I've brought up the same questions over on the Ascend forums about my very own beloved Sierra ribbon towers and never really got a satisfactory reply... Turns out they are the best sounding speakers I've had in my room, but if I'm being honest it has always bugged me a little that reviews are rare, and 3rd party measurements for his high end speakers are virtually nonexistent. As far as I know, this is the only 3rd party review by an audio site I know of, and this is with the NrT tweets, not the RAALs, and no measurements...

Do you think it's maybe these very small, very, very small speaker companies with absolutely no marketing budget like PSA, like Ascend acoustics that this is an issue? They just don't have the time or money to deal with this stuff?

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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Do you think it's maybe these very small, very, very small speaker companies with absolutely no marketing budget like PSA, like Ascend acoustics that this is an issue? They just don't have the time or money to deal with this stuff?

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Maybe, but wouldn't it be great for business if you loaned some units out for review and the measurements were out of this world? You'd be giving up a product for a few months, but you can't buy better advertising than a killer review from a respected site with kickass measurements.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Do you think it's maybe these very small, very, very small speaker companies with absolutely no marketing budget like PSA, like Ascend acoustics that this is an issue? They just don't have the time or money to deal with this stuff?

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No, because the designer I mentioned before prioritized paying from his own pocket getting that speaker measured in Canada at the NRC.
Any one of these guys can reach out and arrange to have somebody like ASR, AH, Erin, review a speaker.
The nice thing is, too, it is marketing and the cost can be written off on their taxes.
There is no reason to not play. ;)
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Maybe, but wouldn't it be great for business if you loaned some units out for review and the measurements were out of this world? You'd be giving up a product for a few months, but you can't buy better advertising than a killer review from a respected site with kickass measurements.
Well kinda but when you sell out everything you build you don't need the advertising. There seems to be no incentive for these two companies in particular. Unless I'm missing something.

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vader540is

vader540is

Full Audioholic
Youthman is a really nice guy, but like you said, more entertaining than detailed or analytical. He's got a huge bias for Klipsch.

As for Tom and PSA, I don't think anyone here is suggesting he's dishonest or that his products are bad, but I don't think it's unjustified or unfair to ask why there haven't been any detailed reviews with measurements.

I've brought up the same questions over on the Ascend forums about my very own beloved Sierra ribbon towers and never really got a satisfactory reply... Turns out they are the best sounding speakers I've had in my room, but if I'm being honest it has always bugged me a little that reviews are rare, and 3rd party measurements for his high end speakers are virtually nonexistent. As far as I know, this is the only 3rd party review by an audio site I know of, and this is with the NrT tweets, not the RAALs, and no measurements...

Yeah I totally agree.

Measurements are great and all. I would hope everyone would send them out to Josh, James or Erin for testing.


iIRC when I 1st talked to Tom about 6 years ago about why he doesn't send his products to databass, he said he is a one man shop. It's very different to be a small ID and to have that luxury of sending products out for third-party testing...same reason why Rythmik hasn't sent out their updated FV18 paper cone...same reason why JTR hasn't sent out their updated Subs etc...
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
No, because the designer I mentioned before prioritized paying from his own pocket getting that speaker measured in Canada at the NRC.
Any one of these guys can reach out and arrange to have somebody like ASR, AH, Erin, review a speaker.
The nice thing is, too, it is marketing and the cost can be written off on their taxes.
There is no reason to not play. ;)
Other than they sell everything they build. There is no incentive in my eyes. What do they care in the end? They also know only a small, I'd say very small fraction of people know what these tests are or care. Sad but true. I mean I'm s big dummy and I have to rely on interpreters to explain what the measurements and tests mean in the end. Than you Gene got being that person.

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