PSA subwoofers. I talked with Tom

[kxthor]

So I continue to read reviews and threads about subwoofers. After I made my last thread I started looking at PSA. The FV18 from Rythmik is just to talk for my space (I cant lay it down because then it becomes to wide for my space.) The FV15hp is the biggest sub that I can get from them. I also have read tons of threads about the best bang for the buck subwoofers out there made by HSU. It seems like the HSU subs and Rythmik subs have alot in common (amp rating, size of overall cabinet. threads saying they are great.) Monolith subs are not happening waf.

With PSA I could get a larger woofer and amp with the V1812. What are the thoughts on this sub? What are the thoughts on the S2112? Seems like PSA isnt talked about as much as some of the others. Tom seems like a great guy, straight up. American made and a warranty of 5 years on everything.

 

[Hetfield]

So I continue to read reviews and threads about subwoofers. After I made my last thread I started looking at PSA. The FV18 from Rythmik is just to talk for my space (I cant lay it down because then it becomes to wide for my space.) The FV15hp is the biggest sub that I can get from them. I also have read tons of threads about the best bang for the buck subwoofers out there made by HSU. It seems like the HSU subs and Rythmik subs have alot in common (amp rating, size of overall cabinet. threads saying they are great.) Monolith subs are not happening waf.

With PSA I could get a larger woofer and amp with the V1812. What are the thoughts on this sub? What are the thoughts on the S2112? Seems like PSA isnt talked about as much as some of the others. Tom seems like a great guy, straight up. American made and a warranty of 5 years on everything.

Tom is amazing, extremely honest. I've had him suggest speakers from other companies before. Not necessarily over his but instead of because of budget issues. Dude is flat out honest.
I don't own PSA subs but a friend does and it's the craziest, most insane bass I ever heard. He has duel sealed subs but I forget the model exactly. Insanity is all I know.

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[ryanosaur]

As I've learned more, recently, about using Pro Drivers in Subwoofers and accept that they can work... The biggest concerns I have are that as of yet, there are no measurements available of his gear. More concerning is that there are no third party measurements, made by legit and objective reviewers, at all.

I will say, that you cannot simply judge a Sub by the Amp rating as this is largely meaningless without knowing more about the system as a whole (such as the Drivers Sensitivity, Xmax, Box and Port Tuning Frequencies... All of which come together in a complete system to produce the final result).
That said, Pro Drivers have a very high Fs (Resonant Frequency in Free Air) which requires increasing amounts of power to push performance below that point. Most B&C Drivers are rated around 35-40Hz. To get that to perform below 20Hz is possible, only because of the Motor Strength and Suspension built into the Driver... but they do require, again, gobs of Power, where a regular Sub may hit 20 Hz with a fraction of that required to make one of these reach that extension.
IIRC, his 18" Subs are mostly rated to an F3 od 19Hz, and the 21s to 14Hz with in-room extension dipping lower. Again, having recently researched these drivers in Subwoofer usage, I have to say that without proven testing by impartial trained testers... these numbers are kind of extreme.
While I respect his experience and know well his reputation... If I were in his shoes, I'd be getting honest measurements performed and posted to show the world what he's capable of.
That's my 2¢ FWIW.

 

[shadyJ]

I would wait for reliable third-party measurements. Manufacturers can make all the claims they want, and they frequently do, but the proof is really only seen in a groundplane environment with a good microphone.

 

[vader540is]

So I continue to read reviews and threads about subwoofers. After I made my last thread I started looking at PSA. The FV18 from Rythmik is just to talk for my space (I cant lay it down because then it becomes to wide for my space.) The FV15hp is the biggest sub that I can get from them. I also have read tons of threads about the best bang for the buck subwoofers out there made by HSU. It seems like the HSU subs and Rythmik subs have alot in common (amp rating, size of overall cabinet. threads saying they are great.) Monolith subs are not happening waf.

With PSA I could get a larger woofer and amp with the V1812. What are the thoughts on this sub? What are the thoughts on the S2112? Seems like PSA isnt talked about as much as some of the others. Tom seems like a great guy, straight up. American made and a warranty of 5 years on everything.

Do what I did, order both subs and keep whatever works best in your room.

Numbers are nice and everything, but I like having the stuff in MY room. Your room has a huge influence on your FR.

Here is one TV1812 im my living room.

It's 16 feet by 14 feet with 9 foot ceilings. The room is not sealed and it's open on both sides to the whole house.

I'm on a concrete slab.

The sweep is the sub alone with no EQ

I get awesome TR and amazing ULF. I need a 2nd sub to help with my nulls and a Mini-DSP-HD to EQ.

 

[vader540is]

Tom has the data/ sweeps, you just gotta ask him for it.


This is a groundplane environment with a reference microphone.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I would wait for reliable third-party measurements. Manufacturers can make all the claims they want, and they frequently do, but the proof is really only seen in a groundplane environment with a good microphone.

The closest you could get to 3rd party measurements for PSA is on https://data-bass.com/#/systems with 3 old model subs measured.

@vader540is sorry, 1st party measurement doesn't count then you don't know the conditions and procedure of taking such measurements.

 

[vader540is]

The closest you could get to 3rd party measurements for PSA is on https://data-bass.com/#/systems with 3 old model subs measured.

@vader540is sorry, 1st party measurement doesn't count then you don't know the conditions and procedure of taking such measurements.

Correct, hence why in-home trials are best IMHO.

Your room is not a Anacoic Chamber.

Your room influences your FR.

I order a few subs & speakers, measure them IN MY ROOM & keep whatever measures best and sounds best to MY ears IN MY ROOM.

 

[shadyJ]

Tom has the data/ sweeps, you just gotta ask him for it.


This is a groundplane environment with a reference microphone.View attachment 49918

You can shape a response to whatever you want using DSP. The challenge is how well that response holds up as amplitude rises. A basic frequency response isn't all that helpful.

 

[vader540is]

You can shape a response to whatever you want using DSP. The challenge is how well that response holds up as amplitude rises. A basic frequency response isn't all that helpful.

Hence why I like in home trials. I can measure the speakers/Subs IN MY room.

Best of all I can HEAR them in MY room and not just read data on a website.

 

[Hetfield]

Boy am I surprised no love at all of PSA subs or speakers for that matter around here. It's all skepticism.
You do know he can't build speakers fast enough to keep up with demand right and they do build the speakers right in Ohio? I'm quite surprised at the level of skepticism here and almost distrust.
I've heard the MT110s a few times and 2 of their subs in a real world environment and it was pretty intense and awesome with the best dynamics I have ever heard in a home. The clarity from the MT110 was simply stunning and at super duper high volumes. They did not once even break a sweat.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Kleinst]

As I've learned more, recently, about using Pro Drivers in Subwoofers and accept that they can work... The biggest concerns I have are that as of yet, there are no measurements available of his gear. More concerning is that there are no third party measurements, made by legit and objective reviewers, at all.

I will say, that you cannot simply judge a Sub by the Amp rating as this is largely meaningless without knowing more about the system as a whole (such as the Drivers Sensitivity, Xmax, Box and Port Tuning Frequencies... All of which come together in a complete system to produce the final result).
That said, Pro Drivers have a very high Fs (Resonant Frequency in Free Air) which requires increasing amounts of power to push performance below that point. Most B&C Drivers are rated around 35-40Hz. To get that to perform below 20Hz is possible, only because of the Motor Strength and Suspension built into the Driver... but they do require, again, gobs of Power, where a regular Sub may hit 20 Hz with a fraction of that required to make one of these reach that extension.
IIRC, his 18" Subs are mostly rated to an F3 od 19Hz, and the 21s to 14Hz with in-room extension dipping lower. Again, having recently researched these drivers in Subwoofer usage, I have to say that without proven testing by impartial trained testers... these numbers are kind of extreme.
While I respect his experience and know well his reputation... If I were in his shoes, I'd be getting honest measurements performed and posted to show the world what he's capable of.
That's my 2¢ FWIW.

Hello you mention using pro drivers, is that unique to PSA subs? For my learning I'm curious if they use something different than others do and what impact that might have. Thanks

 

[kxthor]

You can shape a response to whatever you want using DSP. The challenge is how well that response holds up as amplitude rises. A basic frequency response isn't all that helpful.

Boy am I surprised no love at all of PSA subs or speakers for that matter around here. It's all skepticism.
You do know he can't build speakers fast enough to keep up with demand right and they do build the speakers right in Ohio? I'm quite surprised at the level of skepticism here and almost distrust.
I've heard the MT110s a few times and 2 of their subs in a real world environment and it was pretty intense and awesome with the best dynamics I have ever heard in a home. The clarity from the MT110 was simply stunning and at super duper high volumes. They did not once even break a sweat.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

@shadyJ, thank you for your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from. We have to hold companies accountable or they will post whatever they like. On the other hand, he offers a 2 month free trial, that if your not satisfied by his product you can send it back. That is trust in the consumer and trust in ones product.

@Hetfield - The forums are used as an informative tool, and place for hobbies. Different people come here for different reasons. I appreciate shady's as much as I do yours and all the other interaction on this thread.

 

[kxthor]

Hello you mention using pro drivers, is that unique to PSA subs? For my learning I'm curious if they use something different than others do and what impact that might have. Thanks

According to Tom his drivers ARE different. They come from Italy and are custom built. You could email Tom and ask, he is very honest about his products from what I am told. He will be helpful, I'm sure.

 

[Hetfield]

@shadyJ, thank you for your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from. We have to hold companies accountable or they will post whatever they like. On the other hand, he offers a 2 month free trial, that if your not satisfied by his product you can send it back. That is trust in the consumer and trust in ones product.

@Hetfield - The forums are used as an informative tool, and place for hobbies. Different people come here for different reasons. I appreciate shady's as much as I do yours and all the other interaction on this thread.

I hope I didn't come off as combative but I am truly surprised at the skepticism of PSA in general. I'm way more surprised because I have heard them, speakers and subs and was blown away by the volume level. It was astonishing actually.
I wish Audioholics would get a set of just the MT110s to check out. They need a sub or 2 of course. No bass at all from them, just clean dynamics.
I do not own these speakers, I never will own them, out of my price range but I think they are amazing in the two times I heard them.

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[Pogre]

Boy am I surprised no love at all of PSA subs or speakers for that matter around here. It's all skepticism.
You do know he can't build speakers fast enough to keep up with demand right and they do build the speakers right in Ohio? I'm quite surprised at the level of skepticism here and almost distrust.
I've heard the MT110s a few times and 2 of their subs in a real world environment and it was pretty intense and awesome with the best dynamics I have ever heard in a home. The clarity from the MT110 was simply stunning and at super duper high volumes. They did not once even break a sweat.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Het, I love you bro, but I'm a skeptic through and through, and imo there is no such thing as "too skeptical". The truth has nothing to fear from inquiry and should welcome a skeptical approach. Skepticism and the scientific method, applied properly, is the best method for sussing out truth that I think we have.

I've seen concerns over the lack of measurements around PSA brought up before. There's a really easy solution for that.

 

[Hetfield]

Het, I love you bro, but I'm a skeptic through and through, and imo there is no such thing as "too skeptical". The truth has nothing to fear from inquiry and should welcome a skeptical approach. Skepticism and the scientific method, applied properly, is the best method for sussing out truth that I think we have.

I've seen concerns over the lack of measurements around PSA brought up before. There's a really easy solution for that.

And I get that but I'm a big dummy, I don't go on measurements. I go on sound and holy $hit the MT110s sound incredible. I have never heard dynamic speakers like that especially at that volume level. I honestly couldn't even put it into words what the heck I was hearing.
Let me ask you, and others, these speakers have been out for a long time now, why hasn't anyone done measurements on them? If everyone is saying it should be a 3rd party independent set of tests and measurements then that's not PSA fault no one has done that?
Why hasn't someone with the equipment and that is trusted by all of us like Erin from Erin's corner done just that?
I always found it odd there are no reviews, none at all from any main stream publication? I haven't found one anyway. Some companies that do absolutely no advertising get the shaft and the best part is PSA does not care either. They sell everything out without any advertising whatsoever.
Again I'm not here to defend PSA. I don't own then and never will. I just have some experience with them and they are pretty incredible.
Of course Tom is one of the founders of the great SVS so I think he knows what he is doing.

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[BoredSysAdmin]

@shadyJ, thank you for your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from. We have to hold companies accountable or they will post whatever they like. On the other hand, he offers a 2 month free trial, that if your not satisfied by his product you can send it back. That is trust in the consumer and trust in ones product.

SVS also offers a 45 days in-home trial (unlike PSA's, SVS shipping back is free). Also unlike PSA, they aren't shy of making every single of their subs available for 3rd party reviewers.

No one is saying that PSA subs and speakers are bad. It's just I personally won't recommend them just on hearsay or subjective reviews. I'm sure PSA can and does build competent speakers which perform great, but for such large purchases, I like to do my homework as much as humanly possible and not simply taking words from internet strangers.

notes:

SVS Customer Bill of Rights

Read our customer bill of rights and find how SVS stands behind its products. Find the best home theater speakers and subwoofers for less from SVS.

www.svsound.com

60 Day Trial Period

Power Sound Audio offers a 60 day trial period for all of our home audio products.

www.powersoundaudio.com

 

[kxthor]

And I get that but I'm a big dummy, I don't go on measurements. I go on sound and holy $hit the MT110s sound incredible. I have never heard dynamic speakers like that especially at that volume level. I honestly couldn't even put it into words what the heck I was hearing.
Let me ask you, and others, these speakers have been out for a long time now, why hasn't anyone done measurements on them? If everyone is saying it should be a 3rd party independent set of tests and measurements then that's not PSA fault no one has done that?
Why hasn't someone with the equipment and that is trusted by all of us like Erin from Erin's corner done just that?
I always found it odd there are no reviews, none at all from any main stream publication? I haven't found one anyway. Some companies that do absolutely no advertising get the shaft and the best part is PSA does not care either. They sell everything out without any advertising whatsoever.
Again I'm not here to defend PSA. I don't own then and never will. I just have some experience with them and they are pretty incredible.
Of course Tom is one of the founders of the great SVS so I think he knows what he is doing.

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One of the reasons is probably that Tom isnt going to send over one of his units for free. As I gather he sells them as fast as he can make them so there is no reason to send one for review. So with that being said, who would pay for the item and what would happen to it after the review was done?

 

[kxthor]

SVS also offers a 45 days in-home trial (unlike PSA's, SVS shipping back is free). Also unlike PSA, they aren't shy of making every single of their subs available for 3rd party reviewers.
No one is saying that PSA subs and speakers are bad. It's just I personally won't recommend them just on hearsay or subjective reviews.

notes:

SVS Customer Bill of Rights

Read our customer bill of rights and find how SVS stands behind its products. Find the best home theater speakers and subwoofers for less from SVS.

www.svsound.com

60 Day Trial Period

Power Sound Audio offers a 60 day trial period for all of our home audio products.

www.powersoundaudio.com

Alot of those 3rd party reviews are either free products or people trying to make a name for themselves on youtube. You have to start somewhere why not start with a well known product that will get you hits. Product reviews like this need to be taken with a grain of salt.