Pre Review Denon AVP-A1HDCI & POA-A1HDCI Separates Thread

[Seth V]

Good luck with that. Everytime I move this sucker nobody is around to help me and I had to carry it up a flight of steps

Yikes! And like furrycute said, do wear something to protect your back. Which I'm sure you do.

 

[Seth V]

I dont know about you guys, but i think the new marantz pre-pro is just as good as the Denon, and its only $5000, compared to the ridiculous cost of the Denon.

Actually the Marantz pre/pro is $2,599.99 ($5k for both pre and amp). Just is good?, I'm sorry but I have to disagree on that one. The Marantz separates, like the Integra separates, are a LOT of bang for the buck. But once you actually dig into each a bit deeper, the differences are more apparent. Like was mentioned, the Denon has 6 HDMI ins where the Marantz has 4. But that's only part of it.

Here's a rundown of the many things the Denon AVP offers that the Marantz does not:

Fully balanced dual differential design
4 DAC's per channel on all 12 output channels
12 balanced XLR pre-outs (3 for subs)
A/D conversion for EXT IN.
Silicon Optix Realta HQV video processing
4 Coax and 4 Optical Inputs
4 Optical outputs for other zones
4 Trigger Outputs
Wi-Fi connection
HDCD decoder

And take a look at how sparse the front is when compared to the Denon.

And one other thing that might not be a biggie for some, but for me it is, is the fact that the Marantz is "Made in China". The Denon AVP is Made in Japan.

This is in no way to make less of the Marantz separates. The Marantz separates are going to give the Integra separates some serious competition. Both are reasonably priced, and offer all the latest decoding and HDMI 1.3 switching. And for many that are wanting to make the move to true separates, these are going to be the ones to beat. I mean 5 grand for pre/pro and amp, that's one hell of a great deal!

I only mentioned what I did to clarify the differences between the Marantz and Denon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually the Marantz pre/pro is $2,599.99 ($5k for both pre and amp). Just is good?, I'm sorry but I have to disagree on that one. The Marantz separates, like the Integra separates, are a LOT of bang for the buck. But once you actually dig into each a bit deeper, the differences are more apparent. Like was mentioned, the Denon has 6 HDMI ins where the Marantz has 4. But that's only part of it.

Here's a rundown of the many things the Denon AVP offers that the Marantz does not:

Fully balanced dual differential design
4 DAC's per channel on all 12 output channels
12 balanced XLR pre-outs (3 for subs)
A/D conversion for EXT IN.
Silicon Optix Realta HQV video processing
4 Coax and 4 Optical Inputs
4 Optical outputs for other zones
4 Trigger Outputs
Wi-Fi connection
HDCD decoder

And one other thing that might not be a biggie for some, but for me it is, is the fact that the Marantz is "Made in China". The Denon AVP is Made in Japan.

This is in no way to make less of the Marantz separates. The Marantz separates are going to give the Integra separates some serious competition. Both are reasonably priced, and offer all the latest decoding and HDMI 1.3 switching. And for many that are wanting to make the move to true separates, these are going to be the ones to beat. I mean 5 grand for pre/pro and amp, that's one hell of a great deal!

I only mentioned what I did to clarify the differences between the Marantz and Denon.

My impression is that these Marantz separates are kind of like the Denon 4308 in separate chassis (4 HDMI, 140wpc).

The AVP is like the Denon 5308 (specs are practically identical except for the fully balanced outputs & the 0.005% THD Pure Direct vs 0.05% THD). The POA is also kind of like the Denon 5308 on STEROIDS (150wpc x 10Ch + toroidal vs 150wpc x 7Ch).

 

[furrycute]

You have THREE PMA-2000IVRs?

Did you buy new or used? That must have cost lots of pretty pennies!


The thing I can't figure out is, which one is more powerful, the SA11 or the SA1? Which one is considered higher end?

Because the SA1 list price is more than twice the list price of the SA11. Yet the SA11's shows it has more power output than the SA1.

Well, I didn't think it was fair to compare a $1,200 Denon PMA2000 to a $4,000 Marantz or $10,000 Denon PMA-SA1.

The PMS-SA11 looks nice. It is 11 lbs heavier than the PMA2000IVR, has 120w/240w into 8/4 ohms (which probably means TWICE that output), but all the other specs look the same (THD 0.01% @ -3dB, SNR 108dB). And if it costs anything like the PMA-SA1, it will cost about $10,000 or more!

http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/pmasa11/pmasa11.htm

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You have THREE PMA-2000IVRs?

Did you buy new or used? That must have cost lots of pretty pennies!


The thing I can't figure out is, which one is more powerful, the SA11 or the SA1? Which one is considered higher end?

Because the SA1 list price is more than twice the list price of the SA11. Yet the SA11's shows it has more power output than the SA1.

I bought the PMA2000R Mach IV as Denon Certified B-stocks.

Yeah, it seems like the SA11 is 120 watts x 2Ch and the SA1 is 50 watts x 2Ch. The SA1 was made way before the PMA2000 (80 watts x 2Ch), so the SA1 is kind of old. But which one is the Higher-End is a tough question.

 

[GlocksRock]

So you are now getting less power than you were with your emotiva amp? How can you fathom the thought of not having all that juice on tap?

 

[furrycute]

Actually the SA1 is a new model. I think it came out sometime around 2003 or maybe even later.

Before the SA1 there was the S1 standalone amp, then came the SA10 integrated amp, then the SA10 II integrated, and then the SA1 integrated amp came out.

I don't know where this SA11 fits in the overall scheme of things. SA11 is only sold inside Japan, you can't find it anywhere else. While the SA1 is sold everywhere else except the Americas.

I am just really curious to find out which one is the ultimate Denon integrated amp, the SA1 or the SA11 (not that I have the money to buy either one...).

I bought the PMA2000R Mach IV as Denon Certified B-stocks.

Yeah, it seems like the SA11 is 120 watts x 2Ch and the SA1 is 50 watts x 2Ch. The SA1 was made way before the PMA2000 (80 watts x 2Ch), so the SA1 is kind of old. But which one is the Higher-End is a tough question.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you are now getting less power than you were with your emotiva amp? How can you fathom the thought of not having all that juice on tap?

Yeah, it's a little less power. The actual measured power output of the PMA2000IVR is 250 watts into 4 ohms (MPS-2 is 300 watts into 4 ohms). The Audio Critic measured the PMA2000R's power output @ about 400 watts into 1 ohm! So this tells me that the PMA2000 can handle any speaker out there.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am just really curious to find out which one is the ultimate Denon integrated amp, the SA1 or the SA11 (not that I have the money to buy either one...).

I would definitely pick the SA11 for that 120/240 wpc into 8/4 ohms, which probably means 375 wpc into 4 ohms

Damn, I might have to save up and get 3 of the SA11 later down the road if Denon will ever release it here in the US!

The $4K Marantz I.A. is 100/200 wpc into 8/4 ohms. THD is the same as the PMA2000: 0.01% @ -3dB, but the SNR is less (96dB vs 108dB)!

Why is the SNR worse in the $4K Marantz?

Also, I think the SNR in the SA11 is 105dB, which is also worse than the PMA2000!

Does that mean MORE Power = LESS SNR?

Not that we can hear the difference between those numbers, but still, I expect a $4K AI to have better specs (besides power output) than a $1.2K AI.

 

[furrycute]

There is an audioholics review on that Marantz reference series integrated amp. Just do a search.

I think Denon is playing with the specs here. Denon stated themselves that they underspeced the PMA-2000IVR. Who knows what else is underspeced or overspeced on their webpage.

That Marantz reference series integrated is definitely a BEAST. I would take it over the PMA-2000IVR any day if I had the money.

The SA1 costs twice the amount of money as the SA11. And the SA1 weighs a couple of pounds more than the SA11. I don't know...

 

[furrycute]

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/marantz-pm-11s1-integrated-amplifier/?searchterm=marantz reference integrated

Here we go, Clint did the review.

I am not too sure about the price. $4,000 can get you a really nice pre/amp combo...

But this integrated amp sure looks SWEET!

 

[gene]

I know Harman Kardon pride themselves on having receivers with high current capability. The AVR247 is capable of 35A, their flagship AVR745 is 60A.

And the Denon PMA2000 is capable of 120 Amperes?

The high instaneous current spec is a scam:

See: http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-high-instantaneous-current-spec

I dont know about you guys, but i think the new marantz pre-pro is just as good as the Denon, and its only $5000, compared to the ridiculous cost of the Denon. With the money left over you can get a Sony SXRD 1080p projector, screen, and blu-ray player. Just a thought though.

Um there are numerous differences between the Denon and Marantz separates to justify the price differences. The Denon pre/pro for example likely weighs more than the Marantz Power Amp. The Denon amp is the only amp I've seen in the industry with a UL rating down to 4 ohms and its bridgeable to pump out over 1kwatt into 1 channel. Its a beast.

The new Marantz gear looks great for a lot less money but its not in the same league as the new Denon separates.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think Denon is playing with the specs here. Denon stated themselves that they underspeced the PMA-2000IVR. Who knows what else is underspeced or overspeced on their webpage.

That Marantz reference series integrated is definitely a BEAST. I would take it over the PMA-2000IVR any day if I had the money.

I agree.

Who would not take a $4K IA over a $1.2K IA anyday of the week?

So it is definitely a FACT that Denon/Marantz SERIOUSLY under-spec'ed their Integrated Amps BIG TIME!

And I would take the Denon PMA-SA11 or SA1 over the Marantz anyday of the week!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, here is the spec sheets on the PMA2000R vs. PMA2000IVR:

http://usa.denon.com/pma2000_productsheet.pdf

http://usa.denon.com/PMA-2000IVRLit.pdf

Could someone tell me the difference, besides the weight?

Well, to answer my own question, here is the answer from Denon:

"The difference in the two units is that the IV R has more weight, better built design and an improved chassis. All this will give you better sound quality overall. With the new design you should not be able to hear the difference in the Signal-to-Noise-Ratio."

 

[Seth V]

Um there are numerous differences between the Denon and Marantz separates to justify the price differences. The Denon pre/pro for example likely weighs more than the Marantz Power Amp. The Denon amp is the only amp I've seen in the industry with a UL rating down to 4 ohms and its bridgeable to pump out over 1kwatt into 1 channel. Its a beast.

The new Marantz gear looks great for a lot less money but its not in the same league as the new Denon separates.

Totally agree.

 

[3db]

The high instaneous current spec is a scam:

See: http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-high-instantaneous-current-spec



Um there are numerous differences between the Denon and Marantz separates to justify the price differences. The Denon pre/pro for example likely weighs more than the Marantz Power Amp. The Denon amp is the only amp I've seen in the industry with a UL rating down to 4 ohms and its bridgeable to pump out over 1kwatt into 1 channel. Its a beast.

The new Marantz gear looks great for a lot less money but its not in the same league as the new Denon separates.

Were you able to pull a 120 amperes out of this beast? If so, you must have had to modifiy the electrical circuit to support such a current draw since most circuit breakers pop open at 15 amps, and a stove around 30 amps.

 

[3db]

Like i said before, no thanks. I'll take a Bryston over those Denon beasts anyday because they are better built and offer a warranty that cannot be touched by any other manufacturer of hi-fi components in the industry

 

[furrycute]

But have you seen the prices on Bryston gear lately? Ever since the U.S. dollar tanked against the Canadian dollar, the prices on Bryston gear have gone through the roof.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like i said before, no thanks. I'll take a Bryston over those Denon beasts anyday because they are better built and offer a warranty that cannot be touched by any other manufacturer of hi-fi components in the industry

But have you seen the prices on Bryston gear lately? Ever since the U.S. dollar tanked against the Canadian dollar, the prices on Bryston gear have gone through the roof.

I like Bryston a lot, but their gears are really ugly IMO.

They just don't "look" high-end to me.

If I'm spending $12,000 on some gears, I want them to look like $12,000 gears.

 

[3db]

I like Bryston a lot, but their gears are really ugly IMO.

They just don't "look" high-end to me.

If I'm spending $12,000 on some gears, I want them to look like $12,000 gears.

Ugly yes but a 20 year warranty is just unbeatble no matter how ugly it looks