Pre/Pro and Amp opinion

mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
MacManNM said:
The yammie cant even come close in 2ch mode. I can hear distortion and the sound is almost compressed. I don't know quite how to describe it
.....Mac, I'm still most curious about what you reported here....have some thoughts come to you about describing what you heard since you posted this?.....

.....and Guys, I promise you I'm not trying to slam anything....some people don't want to have to hook up anything more than what's base one necessary, and LOVE their receiver....I say more power to them....the most important thing is quality sound instead of TV speakers, right?....gotta' go crash, Guys, it looks like I may work about dark....them boys on the extra-board are droppin' like flies, lyin'-off claimin' sick....get out and enjoy the day.....
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
PENG said:
I wrote <100WPC peak, not continuous, and it goes without saying, it depends on type of music you play.

Yes, but I guess I should have referenced hifi's post
i just finished watching/listening to an allman brothers concert on my big rig,the amplifiers were pumping a constant 100 watts & were reaching well over 500 watts during hard hitting dynamic bursts,

constant 100watts to me would mean 100watts rms is being put out constantly. If that is the case, wow, let me out of there, way too loud for me. And, even at 86dB sensitivity, 106 dB, less listening distance, a constant 95 dB is pretty loud to me.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
mtrycrafts said:
Yes, but I guess I should have referenced hifi's post
i just finished watching/listening to an allman brothers concert on my big rig,the amplifiers were pumping a constant 100 watts & were reaching well over 500 watts during hard hitting dynamic bursts,

constant 100watts to me would mean 100watts rms is being put out constantly. If that is the case, wow, let me out of there, way too loud for me
Sorry, of course you were referring to hifi's post. 'Please note that he has 86 dB sensitivity speakers with 52 drivers and probably a large room (he said good size).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
PENG said:
Sorry, of course you were referring to hifi's post. 'Please note that he has 86 dB sensitivity speakers with 52 drivers and probably a large room (he said good size).

Yes, but that is still at 106dB spl, less the listening position, regardless of room size, unless he is at the far corner:D which we don't know yet. So, at 12 ft or so, 95 dB spl constant? Not me. I'd have no hearing left real fast.
 
The13thGryphon

The13thGryphon

Audioholic
Separates worth the price?

Thought I’d throw my two cents in here… sorry in advance for the long post.

My first home theater system was based upon a Marantz SR-4200 receiver (70 watts per channel). At the time I had two pairs of speakers in the house, and decided that I’d build a surround system around one of the two.

They were a pair of Klipsch Forte’s and a pair of KEF Q75’s. Both of these speakers are efficient, and neither is seemingly a difficult load. The Forte is a 99dB (1 watt/1 meter) speaker with a nominal 8 ohm rating. The Q75 is a 91 dB (1 watt/1 meter) 6 ohm nominal speaker.

With 99 dB sensitivity and an 8 ohm rating one would think you could use pretty much any amplifier with the Klipsch Forte’s. This, however, is not the case. Apparently, in order to match the output levels of the midrange and tweeter drivers (those horns, you know) to the 12” woofer, Klipsch used a type of transformer in the crossover circuit. Transformers are inductive by nature; which means that while the amplifier doesn’t have to have a high power output, it does need to be able to deal with a very difficult load caused by the inductor’s presence. Using an inexpensive receiver with these speakers is entirely the wrong approach. What’s needed is a high-current amplifier that can deal with difficult loads without any problems. Not high power… high current… or “grunt” as I call it.

Therefore, my Marantz receiver/Klipsch experiment failed miserably; muddy, tubby, and generally unappealing sound was the result. Luckily, the KEF’s sounded very nice with the Marantz, which allowed me to begin building my home theater anyway. My first point is that impedance and sensitivity are not the only parameters in the speaker/amp interface to be concerned with. Phase angle and inductance must also be taken into account, at a minimum.

Now, here’s where it gets even more interesting. After several months of enjoyment with my new system I wondered how it would sound with more oomph behind it. Not that it wasn’t loud enough… just that I wanted a more dynamically realistic presentation for both music and movies. Therefore, I grabbed my battleship amp (a Harman-Kardon Citation 22) which is rated at 200 watts per channel into 4 or 8 ohms. It has a “high current” setting for 4 ohm (and under) loads. I tried it with both sets of speakers

The difference was obvious. Not as great as the difference between the Klipsch and KEF speakers, but significant none-the-less. Even with the relatively mild-mannered KEFs there was greater dynamics and impact, greater detail and clarity, greater growl in the bass, better low bass extension, and overall, a much more lifelike and exhilarating presentation. And where the Marantz wouldn’t play nice with the Klipsch Forte’s, the Citation amp made them sing!

So, with this experience under my belt a dedicated 5-channel amp was the obvious solution... which then eventually lead me to a better quality DVD player and a dedicated pre-pro. Each was a nice addition to the system, adding additional touches of detail, smoothness, and refinement. However, I will admit that these last two were more incremental increases, not radical improvements. Although I must say that the clarity and positioning of surround effects on movies did improve noticably with the computing horsepower on tap with the dedicated pre-pro, as compared to the receiver… though I’m sure many of today’s receivers have as much ability as my five year old pre-pro did when new… so that’s not as much of an issue… unless, of course, today’s processors are even farther ahead. Who knows?

Now understand, I’m not putting down anyone who owns and uses a receiver… different strokes for different folks – not everyone wants to spend the money, not everyone wants those extra boxes hanging around, not everyone seems able to hear the difference, or the difference isn’t great enough to warrant the expenditure for others – but there is a difference; and in my opinion, for the better, with separates. For me, it was indeed enough to warrant the cost.
 
E

eirepaul

Audioholic
I had a very similar situation with Klipsch Fortes and a Yamaha receiver. Couldn't understand how such a supposedly ultra efficient speaker would present such a difficult load to an amplifier until I learned about the inductance issue. Things improved dramatically once I picked up an Adcom GFA 555II, a high current amplifier. A lot of stars have to be aligned just right sometimes when matching amplifiers or receivers to some speakers.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
The13thGryphon said:
which then eventually lead me to a better quality DVD player and a dedicated pre-pro. Each was a nice addition to the system, adding additional touches of detail, smoothness, and refinement. However, I will admit that these last two were more incremental increases, not radical improvements
.....The13thGryphon, just like you get different sound qualities with different dedicated slave-amps, you better believe you get different sound qualities with different dedicated pre-amps....I know, I know, Mortimer Stifflewhoffer had a review published that said contrary, as he viewed the World through his four inch thick glasses picking his nose to the second knuckle, but who cares what Mortimer thinks compared to what one personally hears?....I know I certainly don't....a few years back, I picked up a threesome of dedicated seperates on a package deal of used components that was considered at the time actually pretty high end Denon....tuner, pre-amp, and two-channel amp....I knew I was going to use the amp in my system, and wanted to give the pre-amp and tuner a shot also....after about two minutes of listening to the Denon pre-amp in the mix, I QUICKLY returned my McIntosh C-26 to my system....the Denon pre-amp sounded no better than about all of the receivers I'd had, and one receiver I'd had blew it's doors off, a Sansui, believe it or not, best receiver I ever had, and I still have it in storage....oh, the Denon tuner sounded lifeless compared to the Kenwood tuner with a 1.0 capture ratio I was using at the time, but I found a use for the Denon pre-amp and tuner upstairs with headphone use....take that, Mortimer.....
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The13thGryphon said:
Therefore, I grabbed my battleship amp (a Harman-Kardon Citation 22) which is rated at 200 watts per channel into 4 or 8 ohms. It has a “high current” setting for 4 ohm (and under) loads. I tried it with both sets of speakers
.

Cannot possibly be a high current amp if it has the same power rating into 4 ohms as it has for 8 ohms. Besides, 7A into 4 ohms at 200 watts is not very high, 2A more than into that 8 ohm load at 200 watts.

What is the impedance of those Forte in the low frequency band?
 
The13thGryphon

The13thGryphon

Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Cannot possibly be a high current amp if it has the same power rating into 4 ohms as it has for 8 ohms. Besides, 7A into 4 ohms at 200 watts is not very high, 2A more than into that 8 ohm load at 200 watts.

What is the impedance of those Forte in the low frequency band?
Actually, it is a high current amp. As stated in my prior post, the amp has a selector switch that can be set to "High Voltage" for 8 ohm speakers (supplying 200 watts per channel), and a "High Current" setting for 4 ohm or 2 ohm speakers (also supplying 200 watts per channel into a 4 ohm load). Obviously, if a 4 ohm load was used on the "High Voltage" setting the amp would put out more than 200 watts.

I am quite familiar with the addage of a high-current amp "doubling down" its 8 ohm power rating into a 4 ohm load... this amp is designed to allow the user to select a high impedance or low impedance setting - matching the load of their speakers. The spec's I have here indicate that the Citation 22's dynamic power rating is 300 watts into 8 ohms, 500 watts into 4 ohms, and 800 watts into a 2 ohm load.

A typical amp design will run significantly hotter into a 4 ohm load, than it will into an 8 ohm load. Therefore, the design must accomodate the additional current and heat of a 4 ohm load (costing more in the process), or utilize current limiting to prevent over-current and over-heating (limiting power and possibly degrading the sound quality). The Citation is designed to operate at a specific voltage/current combination into either an 8 ohm load or a 4 ohm load... keeping the heat generated under a 4 ohm load down by reducing the voltage available, not limiting the current available; and therefore not degrading the sound either. Pretty ingenious, no?

As for the Klipsch, the minimam impedance is 4 ohms at 150 Hz. The impedance rises to a peak of 20 ohms at 65 Hz, and then falls back to 5 ohms at 42 Hz, and then again rising to 19 ohms at 20 Hz. They also have an unusually high impedance peak of 130 ohms at 2,200 Hz.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The13thGryphon said:
The Citation is designed to operate at a specific voltage/current combination into either an 8 ohm load or a 4 ohm load... keeping the heat generated under a 4 ohm load down by reducing the voltage available, not limiting the current available; and therefore not degrading the sound either. Pretty ingenious, no?
It seems to me depend on how you look at it, you guys are both right. Some Sony models have that 4 ohm switch too. It does seem to be a good way to get around the extra amps drawn by 4 ohm speakers. However, relatively speaking a high current amp that has to lower the voltage to limit the current demand by 4 ohm speakers is not as high current capable as an amp that does not need to have that switch.

As you said yourself, there are high current amps that can double down (or almost).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The13thGryphon said:
Actually, it is a high current amp. As stated in my prior post, the amp has a selector switch that can be set to "High Voltage" for 8 ohm speakers (supplying 200 watts per channel), and a "High Current" setting for 4 ohm or 2 ohm speakers (also supplying 200 watts per channel into a 4 ohm load). Obviously, if a 4 ohm load was used on the "High Voltage" setting the amp would put out more than 200 watts.
The13thGryphon said:
Actually, it is not obvious at all as it is not rated for more than 200 watts at 4 ohms. So, it will not without problems.
Why would they lower the voltage on the 4 ohm speaker besides controlling the power output?
P=1*2 x R No matter how you slice it, 200 watts at 4 ohms will take only that 7A. If current is increased as you say, the power must go up. Since it doesn't, the amp delivers only 7A at 200 watts, period. That is not high current compared to the 8 ohm mode.


I am quite familiar with the addage of a high-current amp "doubling down" its 8 ohm power rating into a 4 ohm load... this amp is designed to allow the user to select a high impedance or low impedance setting - matching the load of their speakers. The spec's I have here indicate that the Citation 22's dynamic power rating is 300 watts into 8 ohms, 500 watts into 4 ohms, and 800 watts into a 2 ohm load.

OK, so it can produce 20A at 20ms into 2 ohms and 11A into 4 ohms Must have a large filter capacitor as it cannot sustain the current demand.

A typical amp design will run significantly hotter into a 4 ohm load, than it will into an 8 ohm load. Therefore, the design must accomodate the additional current and heat of a 4 ohm load (costing more in the process), or utilize current limiting to prevent over-current and over-heating (limiting power and possibly degrading the sound quality). The Citation is designed to operate at a specific voltage/current combination into either an 8 ohm load or a 4 ohm load... keeping the heat generated under a 4 ohm load down by reducing the voltage available, not limiting the current available;

Of course it is limiting the current at 4 ohms. Look at the RMS power rating, 7A. If it could take more current for a longer time it would be so rated. It is not. Dynamic conditions are different from sustained RMS operation. Perhaps it has a temp sensor that regulates voltage, hence current. Dynamic conditions may not activate those limiting conditions.
 
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