Pre/Pro and Amp opinion

[mulester7]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrrho
Unless you are driving your Marantz to clipping, no. If you want greater clarity, etc., I suggest you invest your money in better speakers or in room treatments.



You are so wrong it's not even funny.
__________________
John

I happen to agree with Pyrrho. As I have said in the past, IME what one hears in their listening room is about 90% speaker chioce and room acoustecs. If I really wanted a really significent improvement in sound that is where I would start. YMMV.

Regards, Nick

.....Nick, I have no problem agreeing with you and Pyhrro to a large extent on the importance of speakers and room acoustics, and I don't think MacManNM meant that quite the way you may have taken it....I believe he was just lending endorsement to dedicated slave power, and he's got the experience and interaction by hands-on to give a most worthy opinion.....

.....I think the speakers definitely SHOULD be the prime consideration in your theater, but I feel you're not giving enough credence to the powering of the speakers....and before the power comes the pre-amplification, actually more important, imo....but I agree, the speakers are the most discriminating factor for your listening enjoyment....but....everything from the source to the speakers better not be no slouch, or you ain't there yet, Sir........

 

[mulester7]

I used to think along those lines too. I had a good sounding system. My Yamaha 2500 powering all 5 of my speakers. I didn't go out and buy amps, I had them laying around. I never really push the 2500 too hard, so I didn't think I would hear a huge difference when I hooked up the amps. But I did. I am running amps that are of less power than my receiver (100w/ch for mains, 50w/ch rear). I have my LFE set to crossover at 60Hz, and all speakers set to small. The receiver is running the center chan only. Again, I state that I hear a lot more detail in everything now, even at low levels when I'm not pushing the amps hard. I don't think that going with a better amp is going to improve the sound, but I do believe that using these seperates with this receiver has opened up the sound, and improved the overall sound quality.

.....Mac, just for the heck of it, throw that C-28 of yours in the mix with the Proton amps powering the speakers you just built....I know you can't power the center with that setup, but you could conduct a listening comparison with the center speaker left out of both hearings....ya' never know, you might have me out shopping for a receiver to use as a pre-pro....

 

[mulester7]

you might have me out shopping for a receiver to use as a pre-pro....

....as if, haha.....

 

[Buckle-meister]

Audition as many speakers as you can...

...in the same room wherever possible.

...I'm a seperates purist...

I used to be too Mulester7. I mean, there was simply no comparison between an old midi system and my first separates system. However, and this kind of throws a spanner in the works, I have to say that I much prefer my Yamaha Z9 receiver to my previous Musical Fidelity Electra E200/E300 Pre/Power amps, though in this instance the Z9 is 1.7 times as powerful on each channel (disregarding all channels driven etc) as my pre/power was, so perhaps a spanner isn't in the works after all.

I've seen it written in threads that Yamahas tend to sound on the lean side. I can't in all honest say if they actually do or don't. But my subjective impression confirms this to be true, and I find the lighter, more transparent and far more detailed feel of the Yamaha's sound more to my liking. Still, I'd certainly not rule out the possibility that a pre-amp with insane power-amps wouldn't kick the crap out of even my Z9. Maybe one day I'll find out. Fancy a holiday Hifihoney?...

 

[Nick250]

I used to think along those lines too. I had a good sounding system. My Yamaha 2500 powering all 5 of my speakers. I didn't go out and buy amps, I had them laying around. I never really push the 2500 too hard, so I didn't think I would hear a huge difference when I hooked up the amps. But I did. I am running amps that are of less power than my receiver (100w/ch for mains, 50w/ch rear). I have my LFE set to crossover at 60Hz, and all speakers set to small. The receiver is running the center chan only. Again, I state that I hear a lot more detail in everything now, even at low levels when I'm not pushing the amps hard. I don't think that going with a better amp is going to improve the sound, but I do believe that using these seperates with this receiver has opened up the sound, and improved the overall sound quality.

I confess that I have only heard high end amplification in the B&Ms and did not really notice much difference in the sound there. I am open to the possibilty that it might be different in my living room. That being said I have had a number of different speakers in my living room and the differences between them could be dramatic ( stating the bleedin' obvious). One of these days I will get some high power amps in MY living room (not the store) and see what happens. I have not had much urge to tinker much so far because I am really like the sound of my current system which I have had for about 5 years (except the receiver which is newer, Onkyo 595 craped out). The system is three Paradigm Studio 20s for RCL, surrounds Paraidigm Mini Monitors and HUS VTF2. Receiver is a Dennon 1705 BTW.

I will keep an open mind on the amp issue.

Regards, Nick

 

[MacManNM]

I confess that I have only heard high end amplification in the B&Ms and did not really notice much difference in the sound there. I am open to the possibilty that it might be different in my living room. That being said I have had a number of different speakers in my living room and the differences between them could be dramatic ( stating the bleedin' obvious). One of these days I will get some high power amps in MY living room (not the store) and see what happens. I have not had much urge to tinker much so far because I am really like the sound of my current system which I have had for about 5 years (except the receiver which is newer, Onkyo 595 craped out). The system is three Paradigm Studio 20s for RCL, surrounds Paraidigm Mini Monitors and HUS VTF2. Receiver is a Dennon 1705 BTW.

I will keep an open mind on the amp issue.

Regards, Nick

Well, with the exception of bucle (I consider a Z9 to essentially be seperates) I don't think you really need high power. Again, all of mine are rated less than my yammie @ 130w/ch. I also wouldn't say the difference was huge. But it was enough to notice. You may want to think about adding a cheap 2ch to see if you notice the same things I did.

Mule,
I have been thinking about hooking the old C-28 into the system, I need to build a switch so I can do it pretty easily. Maybe this weekend I will do it!

 

[highfihoney]

in all the discussions on external amplification vs reciever amplification i keep reading that as long as any amp isnt clipping then there are no differences to be heard,this is simply not true ,there are different levels of clipping with any amplifier & unless the amp is in full clip its not as easily heard & unless a person is monitoring their power output they have no way to tell,before any amplifier reaches full clip its distortion levels are raised & its head room for dynamic peaks reaches the point of exahustion, then full clip occurs.

i just finished watching/listening to an allman brothers concert on my big rig,the amplifiers were pumping a constant 100 watts & were reaching well over 500 watts during hard hitting dynamic bursts, what would the effect be on most recievers amplifiers with source material that has dynamic peaks over 5 times the output which is very common to see, a short term peak isnt enough to send the amplifier into a full clip but it will devistate the amplifiers ability to accurately deliever the dynamic peak,even though the recievers amp didnt fully clip it would still deliever a highly distorted & under powered signal.

a person does not need to push their amp (to ear bleeding levels) as some like to say before these effects become audible, speaker sensitivity has nothing to do with dynamic peaks or the head room required from the amplifier to properly reproduce these peaks, this is where people describe their experiences with outboard amplification as giving them more clarity, depth & detail in the music than they had with their recievers inboard amp.

room correction is very important but to place it above amplification is putting the cart before the horse, you can tune a room all you want but if the amps dont have enough balls room correction will not fix it.

 

[PENG]

The system is three Paradigm Studio 20s for RCL, surrounds Paraidigm Mini Monitors and HUS VTF2. Receiver is a Dennon 1705 BTW.

I will keep an open mind on the amp issue.

Regards, Nick

Nick, using my 87 dB Veritas speakers I am happy with the performance of the 3805 with or without help from one of my amps. Obviously I prefer to have the amp in the loop. I also have a 1705 and if that's what you have now I think you will hear some improvement by having more power, especially in multi-channel modes. The 1705 would struggle a little with your studio 20's (not very sensitive), if you listen to certain classical music or anything that needs a lot of headroom.

The 1705 does not have pre-outs so you are going to have to do something else if you want to try an amp in your own listening environment.

 

[PENG]

in all the discussions on external amplification vs reciever amplification i keep reading that as long as any amp isnt clipping then there are no differences to be heard,this is simply not true ,there are different levels of clipping with any amplifier & unless the amp is in full clip its not as easily heard & unless a person is monitoring their power output they have no way to tell,before any amplifier reaches full clip its distortion levels are raised & its head room for dynamic peaks reaches the point of exahustion, then full clip occurs.

You talked about the different levels of clipping. Are you then implying if in fact there is no clipping (I mean none at all), then you are ok with the claim that "no differences to be heard"?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Well, with the exception of bucle (I consider a Z9 to essentially be seperates) I don't think you really need high power. Again, all of mine are rated less than my yammie @ 130w/ch. I also wouldn't say the difference was huge. But it was enough to notice. You may want to think about adding a cheap 2ch to see if you notice the same things I did.

Mule,
I have been thinking about hooking the old C-28 into the system, I need to build a switch so I can do it pretty easily. Maybe this weekend I will do it!

Mac,

Can you do a quick comparo with your new towers for us?

Using two channel mode, push your DIY towers (beautiful work btw) with your Yamaha RXV2500 (130x2 rms) as much as the wife will allow.

Next, using the same track from a favorite Telarc CD, run your 2500 as a prepro, powering the towers with your two channel Proton 1150 (50x2 rms) slave amplifier.

Let us know if you've noticed any differences. If you've got an spl meter, try level matching them at different outputs.

This may make an interesting new thread.

 

[MacManNM]

Mac,

Can you do a quick comparo with your new towers for us?

Using two channel mode, push your DIY towers (beautiful work btw) with your Yamaha RXV2500 (130x2 rms) as much as the wife will allow.

Next, using the same track from a favorite Telarc CD, run your 2500 as a prepro, powering the towers with your two channel Proton 1150 (50x2 rms) slave amplifier.

Let us know if you've noticed any differences. If you've got an spl meter, try level matching them at different outputs.

This may make an interesting new thread.

Well, I have done that (except I was using the C-28 as the preamp). I haven't used the AA1150, but I did use the 1200. The yammie cant even come close in 2ch mode. I can hear distortion and the sound is almost compressed. I don't know quite how to describe it. As far as level matching them, I can, but what good will that do? I will know which one is playing so it's not a true DBT.

 

[highfihoney]

You talked about the different levels of clipping. Are you then implying if in fact there is no clipping (I mean none at all), then you are ok with the claim that "no differences to be heard"?

hi peng,if there is no clipping & the amplifier is still easily within the limits of its headroom then the differences are a lot harder to hear & in alot of systems they cant be heard at all but all of this is hinged on the amplifier not being ran to the point it has very little or no head room left & the speaker systems ability to accurately reproduce the full range signal.

the only time i agree that no differences can be heard are at low volumes where peoples hearing is less sensitive & not able to pick up on any changes in sound between 2 different amps, at reference levels differences are easily heard,its also very hard to hear differences when people are using powered subwoofers & internal crossovers within recievers or pre/pro's.

at listening levels of 80 db or so my mcintosh & krell amps sound alike but once they approach 90 db the differences in sound start to show ,once the levels go past 100db the differences are dramatic in my system,the krell sounds nothing like the mac.

 

[PENG]

hi peng,if there is no clipping & the amplifier is still easily within the limits of its headroom then the differences are a lot harder to hear & in alot of systems they cant be heard at all but all of this is hinged on the amplifier not being ran to the point it has very little or no head room left & the speaker systems ability to accurately reproduce the full range signal.

the only time i agree that no differences can be heard are at low volumes where peoples hearing is less sensitive & not able to pick up on any changes in sound between 2 different amps, at reference levels differences are easily heard,its also very hard to hear differences when people are using powered subwoofers & internal crossovers within recievers or pre/pro's.

at listening levels of 80 db or so my mcintosh & krell amps sound alike but once they approach 90 db the differences in sound start to show ,once the levels go past 100db the differences are dramatic in my system,the krell sounds nothing like the mac.

Got it, thanks. By the way, if you need 500W to listen to your kind of music you need power amps, no doubt about it. When I listen to 2 channel classical and jazz in my relatively small room, my speakers draw very little power (peak<100WPC) even at reference level.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Got it, thanks. By the way, if you need 500W to listen to your kind of music you need power amps, no doubt about it. When I listen to 2 channel classical and jazz in my relatively small room, my speakers draw very little power (peak<100WPC) even at reference level.

I just cannot fathom 100w RMS pumped into a speaker continuously. That would be about 110dB spl at 1m, or so, then the dynamics on top? Must be in a concert hall.

 

[mulester7]

.....woofers, Guys, woofers....big draw.......

 

[mulester7]

Well, I have done that (except I was using the C-28 as the preamp).The yammie cant even come close in 2ch mode. I can hear distortion and the sound is almost compressed.

.....(head suddenly stilled with ears raised)......

 

[PENG]

I just cannot fathom 100w RMS pumped into a speaker continuously. That would be about 110dB spl at 1m, or so, then the dynamics on top? Must be in a concert hall.

I wrote <100WPC peak, not continuous, and it goes without saying, it depends on type of music you play.

 

[PENG]

.....woofers, Guys, woofers....big draw.......

WhenI took my measurements the woofers drew much more.

 

[highfihoney]

Got it, thanks. By the way, if you need 500W to listen to your kind of music you need power amps, no doubt about it. When I listen to 2 channel classical and jazz in my relatively small room, my speakers draw very little power (peak<100WPC) even at reference level.

hi peng,no matter the volume or source material my main system requires heavy amplification,i run a 52 driver line array speaker system that is very inefficient ( 86 db ) & my room is good size.

 

[MacManNM]

.....(head suddenly stilled with ears raised)......

I played them both flat. The yammie does have a bit of a brighter sound to it. Or My Mcintosh is a little mellow, or a little of both. The Mac seemed smoother all around. ..........Plus, it has that....Mcintosh glow....nothing like it when listening to music in the dark.