Power quality for speakers

[TinleyJake]

I'm fairly inexperienced with hi end speakers/stereos but eagerly trying to learn on my venture in upgrading my current setup.

In auditioning hi-end speakers, on two seperate occasions I've been told that I should upgrade my receiver first due to the auditioned speakers requiring a more quality power supply to really perform to their full potential.

I have an Elite VSX-35TX that has very little milage on it which outputs 100W stereo/90W 5-channel. I'm running a 5.1 setup in a family room that is fairly small (13' x 15') and I had no thoughts of upgrading until this came about.

In everyone's opinion, do these recommendations have merit for modest HT setups. The speakers that arose these comments were the Paradigm Studio 20's and MA RS series at one store and the JMLab Chrous 706s and 707s at the other shop. Both of these were run through an ultra high end preamp/amplifier seperates and they conveniently didn't have them readily wired to a standard receiver to demo.


Thanks,
Jake

 

[highfihoney]

I'm fairly inexperienced with hi end speakers/stereos but eagerly trying to learn on my venture in upgrading my current setup.

In auditioning hi-end speakers, on two seperate occasions I've been told that I should upgrade my receiver first due to the auditioned speakers requiring a more quality power supply to really perform to their full potential.

I have an Elite VSX-35TX that has very little milage on it which outputs 100W stereo/90W 5-channel. I'm running a 5.1 setup in a family room that is fairly small (13' x 15') and I had no thoughts of upgrading until this came about.

In everyone's opinion, do these recommendations have merit for modest HT setups. The speakers that arose these comments were the Paradigm Studio 20's and MA RS series at one store and the JMLab Chrous 706s and 707s at the other shop. Both of these were run through an ultra high end preamp/amplifier seperates and they conveniently didn't have them readily wired to a standard receiver to demo.


Thanks,
Jake

Hey jake,some fine speaker choices you have there,as usual & expected the advice this dealer gave you was out of line,having strong amplification as these dealers were using in their demo systems is something i fully agree with but thats it,they want you to start with buying electronics???????????

When building a system pretty much from scratch speakers are always the starting point,audition (as you have)& buy the speaker you like the best sound wise then if your current reciever/amplifier dont have enough balls you can either add an external amplifier with much more power than your reciever or get a different reciever with a stronger amp section.

I would say to buy the speakers you like then if they need more power than your reciever can give look into external amplification to use alongside your current receiever.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Have to agree; more power is always better but your AVR should power any of those speakers just fine. My little 659 has plenty of power in my giant room.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...and they conveniently didn't have them readily wired to a standard receiver to demo.


Thanks,
Jake

I wonder why that is???
Oh, perhaps they want to sell you on their components???

As Greg mentioned, you will be fine with what you have, especially in that room.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Now if I can just talk myself out of buying an external amp...I dont really think I need one...just kind-of want one...

 

[Seth=L]

Many dealers try to pull this garbage on people that aren't super knowledgeable about audio. In some cases the dealers believe what they are telling you is true and in other cases they know they are filling you mind with junk.

The Studio 20's for example are pretty well rounded speakers. They have a pretty average impedance and are relatively efficient, meaning they won't be difficult for your Pioneer Elite to drive.

Adding a seperate amp to your receiver using the preouts could give you more dynamics if you like to listen to music or watch movies at reference levels or higher. There is no need to get another preamplifier when your receiver will do a perfect job.

Also don't let them fool you into thinking the amplifiers they carry in there store are any different as far as quality of sound than the one inside your receiver, because any well designed transistor amplifier will sound no different from another.

End rant and such...

 

[Nuglets]

My dealer would always try and talk me out of getting a high end receiver and tell me to only get one with features I absolutely needed. Too bad they don't have the best selection of speakers. Oh well, there are always trade-offs.

 

[markw]

You have a rare dealer.

My dealer would always try and talk me out of getting a high end receiver and tell me to only get one with features I absolutely needed.

Treasure him and throw him as much business as you can. That sort of honesty should be rewarded. And, something tells me he doesn't blame you for buying speakers elsewhere.

 

[highfihoney]

any well designed transistor amplifier will sound no different from another.

Sorry seth but being the resident "amp heretic" that i am i couldnt pass that up.

No way Jose.........That's Hose-A

 

[Nuglets]

Treasure him and throw him as much business as you can. That sort of honesty should be rewarded. And, something tells me he doesn't blame you for buying speakers elsewhere.

Yes I always get what I can from them and make an attempt to get the word out about their product quality vs. that of a big name store like BB. I did get my speakers from them but they really don't have a large selection to choose from so I didn't have much auditioning I could do. The high end home audio in this area consists of pretty much Paradigm speakers only, which isn't bad by any means in my opinion but it's a shame that there is nothing to compare them with around here except a HTIB from BB.

I got a refurbished RX-V1400 from the internet, because there is really no way I can afford a brand new receiver of that level,and when I told him that I was looking into getting one online he actually looked it up, gave me a price that I should expect for it and told me to be careful with online retailers but didn't persuade me against it one bit. It is very nice to have a dealer that gives sound advice(no pun intended) and isn't just looking to make an extra buck by lying about one thing or another to take advantage of an uninformed costumer.

 

[Seth=L]

Sorry seth but being the resident "amp heretic" that i am i couldnt pass that up.

No way Jose.........That's Hose-A

Heh, heh, heh, amplifier heretics. Any well designed amplifier should be transparent.

 

[Haoleb]

Also don't let them fool you into thinking the amplifiers they carry in there store are any different as far as quality of sound than the one inside your receiver, because any well designed transistor amplifier will sound no different from another.

That emoticon pretty much sums it up.

 

[Seth=L]

That emoticon pretty much sums it up.

You must have done AB testing to prove that expensive amplifiers sound different. I am not saying that seperate amplifiers don't offer benefits, because they most certainly do. They increase dynamics, they allow for lower impedance loads in most cases, and they sound better when pushed because they have the sum of parts needed to power speakers at higher levels without clipping.

Preamplifiers make a small dent in the SQ, but speakers take the cake.

I was once a firm believer in snake oil, amplifiers that sounded different, and other nonsense. Now I believe that an amplifier that is well designed will deliver the same quality of sound while operating within it's comfortable power ratings.

 

[wire]

You must have done AB testing to prove that expensive amplifiers sound different. I am not saying that seperate amplifiers don't offer benefits, because they most certainly do. They increase dynamics, they allow for lower impedance loads in most cases, and they sound better when pushed because they have the sum of parts needed to power speakers at higher levels without clipping.

Preamplifiers make a small dent in the SQ, but speakers take the cake.

I was once a firm believer in snake oil, amplifiers that sounded different, and other nonsense. Now I believe that an amplifier that is well designed will deliver the same quality of sound while operating within it's comfortable power ratings.

Seth
Comfortable ratings on 2 of my Amps are 250 x 2 . They defintly sound different . Did many A/B testes with them in my Bedroom setup ( which is alot of work because of the weight of the monsters , even my tube amp is 50 lbs ) , of course like the tube amp in my bedroom .

 

[Seth=L]

Seth
Comfortable ratings on 2 of my Amps are 250 x 2 . They defintly sound different . Did many A/B testes with them in my Bedroom setup ( which is alot of work because of the weight of the monsters , even my tube amp is 50 lbs ) , of course like the tube amp in my bedroom .

Yes, at higher levels. If you were using a receiver as a pre/pro and listened to music a quiet levels with the receiver's amplifiers and then switched to the Brystons and listened to them at quiet levels using the receiver as a pre/pro it will sound the same.

 

[Haoleb]

You must have done AB testing to prove that expensive amplifiers sound different.

Yes, I have.

I am not saying that seperate amplifiers don't offer benefits, because they most certainly do. They increase dynamics, they allow for lower impedance loads in most cases, and they sound better when pushed because they have the sum of parts needed to power speakers at higher levels without clipping.

Preamplifiers make a small dent in the SQ, but speakers take the cake.

I was once a firm believer in snake oil, amplifiers that sounded different, and other nonsense. Now I believe that an amplifier that is well designed will deliver the same quality of sound while operating within it's comfortable power ratings.

I kind of agree with you, however when does anyone buy a system to simply play it at low levels, Low levels being something like background elevator music. Amplifiers can definetly make a difference in the right setup. I firmly believe that a difference is more noticable in a 2 channel system rather then a theater setup, They are two different worlds really.

 

[Seth=L]

I kind of agree with you, however when does anyone buy a system to simply play it at low levels, Low levels being something like background elevator music. Amplifiers can definetly make a difference in the right setup. I firmly believe that a difference is more noticable in a 2 channel system rather then a theater setup, They are two different worlds really.

In most cases you won't be getting really high SPLs no matter what you do. The difference between 100 watts and 200 watts is minimal, and of coarse amplifiers are rated differently. A receiver that is rated for 100 watts per channel won't likely match performance from a seperate amplifier that is also rated for 100 watts (I am using wattage loosely I realize, but the point remains).

Now for someone that lives in an apartment with sound ordinances and such, like myself, extreme SPLs is not necessary. None the less I can drive my very inefficient NHTs at reference levels with my receiver without any noticible clipping. I was watching Poseidon (2006) today loud enough to possibly agitate my neighbors, and I will more than likely hear about that tomorrow.

With music, and two channel setups I tend to agree. If you want to listen to demanding music with any sort demanding speaker you must have the juice to drive them constantly with decent headroom. However the OP indicates this is a home theater that we are discussing. So if the user finds that music at high levels is the game then getting a larger amplifier will probably render practical results. With home theater, there is almost always enough power even in larger rooms to produce room filling sound during even intense passages in movie soundtracks.

 

[wire]

Yes, at higher levels. If you were using a receiver as a pre/pro and listened to music a quiet levels with the receiver's amplifiers and then switched to the Brystons and listened to them at quiet levels using the receiver as a pre/pro it will sound the same.

Ok
I never used a midrange reciever as my pre , But i did use a Carver CT-7 ( which is a 2 Channel pre ) . at moderate listining levels ( im getting to old to push the amps anymore ) , there was a difference in the sound , between the Bryston and Carver Amp ( even more with the Sonic Holigram put on ) . The Bryston had a more livley and more depth in the vocals , the Carver had a softer sound and not as detailed as the Bryston . Still both amps are great amps and i like them both very much .
I setup the Carver in my HT set up , it really made a difference and the center channel came alive .
Hehe
Off topic again .

 

[Seth=L]

Ok
I never used a midrange reciever as my pre , But i did use a Carver CT-7 ( which is a 2 Channel pre ) . at moderate listining levels ( im getting to old to push the amps anymore ) , there was a difference in the sound , between the Bryston and Carver Amp ( even more with the Sonic Holigram put on ) . The Bryston had a more livley and more depth in the vocals , the Carver had a softer sound and not as detailed as the Bryston . Still both amps are great amps and i like them both very much .
I setup the Carver in my HT set up , it really made a difference and the center channel came alive .
Hehe
Off topic again .

Sonic Holigraphy is definitely going to change the sound, because it is intended to do so. The amp you mentioned is also going to sound different because it is not a traditional design. That amplifier, the TFM 35, is intended to imitate upper end tube like sound, it will also sound different from your Bryston.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Now if I can just talk myself out of buying an external amp...I dont really think I need one...just kind-of want one...

Why not? That is a great reason to get one